Calling Bullshit: Torture is Good for GOP
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Bob FertikWant to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!
I was shocked to read this in today's First Read from MSNBC on the fierce debate on torture between chickenhawk George Bush and Republican hawks like John McCain, Lindsay Graham, John Warner, and Colin Powell:
some analysts don't think the current debate will wind up hurting Republicans much at the polls in November. NBC political analyst Charlie Cook notes that as long as Topic #1 is detainee policy instead of the unpopular war in Iraq, that's a plus for the GOP.
Is Charlie Cook out of his friggin' mind???
Here are a few pictures we've all seen. Will Americans - including Christian "values voters" - vote for politicians who support this?
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Notice the picture on the right. That prisoner (an Iraqi detainee named Manadel al-Jamadi) is dead - and is just one of dozens, most of which we haven't seen:
That's what torture leads to.
I went looking for polls on torture. Incredibly, it's nearly impossible to find any polls. The only recent poll was in December by ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Amazingly, neither ABC nor the Pentagon Post published the results, as far as I can tell:
"Just your best guess, do you think the U.S. government as a matter of policy is or is not using torture as part of the U.S. campaign against terrorism?"
Using
TortureNot Using
TortureUnsure 12/15-18/05 56% 39% 5% 5/20-23/04 51% 43% 6% "Would you regard the use of torture against people suspected of involvement in terrorism as an acceptable or unacceptable part of the U.S. campaign against terrorism?"
Acceptable Unaccept-
ableDepends 12/15-18/05 32% 64% 3%
So what do we learn from this data?
Despite Bush's repeated lies that "the U.S. does not torture," Americans aren't fools. In 5/04, a 51%-43% majority believed the U.S. was torturing prisoners; by 12/05, that majority increased to 56%-39%. Now that Bush has admitted we use "alternative methods" to interrogate prisoners - which everyone else calls torture - that majority should be trending towards 100%-0%.
And how do Americans feel about our use of torture? By 2:1 (64%-32%), Americans consider torture of terrorism suspects to be unacceptable.
Here are the action items:
- Email Charlie Cook (ccook@nationaljournal.com - be polite of course) and ask him how on earth a debate on legalizing torture can be good for the GOP? Especially when it is a debate between a deeply unpopular President who consistently lies about torture to the point where very few Americans believe him - and the most popular Republican candidate to succeed him, who spent over 5 years as a POW in Vietnam, mostly at the infamous Hanoi Hilton?
- Email Dan Balz (balzd@washpost.com) and Richard Morin (morinr@washpost.com) of the Pentagon Post and ask them (politely of course) why they refused to report the results of their own poll on torture? Also ask why they have not asked these questions in their most recent polls - and whether they will ask them again now that torture is the top story in the news?
- Email Gary Langer (newspolls@abc.com) of ABC and ask him (politely of course) why he refused to report the results of their own poll on torture? Also ask why they have not asked these questions in their most recent polls - and whether they will ask them again now that torture is the top story in the news?
- Email all of the media pollsters and ask them to include questions about torture in their next poll: daniel.m.merkle@abc.com, newspolls@abc.com, ttompson@ap.org, wlester@ap.org, info@americanresearchgroup.com, evening@cbsnews.com, KAF@cbsnews.com, jeff.greenfield@cnn.com, wolf@cnn.com, bill.schneider@turner.com, info@edisonresearch.com, askfox@fox.com, comments@foxnews.com, rthomas@harrisinteractive.com, jgorman@opiniondynamics.com, david_wilson@gallup.com, darby_miller_steiger@gallup.com, david_moore@gallup.com, media_inquiries@gallup.com, rthomas@harrisinteractive.com, Info@harrisinteractive.com, timespoll@latimes.com, maristpoll@marist.edu, Mark.Murray@nbc.com, sheldon.gawiser@nbc.com, nightly@nbc.com, nytnews@nytimes.com, rich@nytimes.com, topurd@nytimes.com, adamnag@nytimes.com, letters@newsweek.com, Marcus.Mabry@newsweek.com, livingpolitics@aol.com, pcraighill@pewresearch.org, skeeter@pewresearch.org, info@people-press.org, pollinginstitute@quinnipiac.edu, Info@rasmussenreports.com, editor@surveyusa.com, spage@usatoday.com, rbenedetto@usatoday.com, editor@usatoday.com, wsjcontact@dowjones.com, morinr@washpost.com, balzd@washpost.com, ombudsman@washpost.com, abramowitz@washpost.com, newseditors@wsj.com, john.harwood@wsj.com
- Sign our War Crimes Petition to prosecute George Bush and other top administration officials responsible for torture
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torture
Submarine USS Wahoo ss238
Torture is Torture is Torture.....period.
We are supposed to be a civilized nation, and we were up until
the Bush administration stole public office.
When the President of the United States must resort to torture
then there is something wrong with this picture.
This is a turning point
..in support for the president from congress. To see big hitters like Mcain and Warner, not to mention the top Dems come out so strongly against Chimpy....This is ,to date, in 6 yrs unheard of. COLIN POWELL for Gods sake....Chimpy called Powell confused. I need a drink.
Time for the lawyers to weigh in. We just heard from Jonathan Turley on Olberman...."lots of trouble coming down the mountain".
No need to have a bashing session when they are so self destructive. So Bob, tell me how is a new left of center congress going to proceed down a righteous, principled, and moral path without condeming that which is not???? And what does this condemnation consist of? Will we just say ,ok, well we won't do this shit cause GW did it, but we won't prosecute him?? Give him a pass???Will the Congress' need to stay in the favor of midwest moderates make their response to criminality muted?? Bob, we have to start discussing the "what ifs". This presidency is starting to lose public support from Congress a'la Nixon....I want to know how close we are to seeing Frist, Hassert, et al. take that walk up the street, and do you think it will come to that.
Thanks in advance for response.
"Vote or Die..DCH"
I think you may have
I think you may have misplaced your "center:"
Liberal American Democrats have always been in the true "center" of American politics, but the Republican neoconservatives and the DLC neoliberals have shifted the "center" so far right, that it is unrecognizable. The true "center" is the fiscally conservative and socially liberal Middle American, and that is the stance of the Democratic Party.
AAMOF, the Democratic Party has never been a "leftist" Party, and Liberalism does NOT equate to either Socialism, or Communism.
Someone should say that
Someone should say that every day in print until it sinks in Bill. I am so tired of democrats letting others define who we are and what we believe.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell
Accountability First
you're right - we need to start planning for the post-victory Democratic agenda.
why? because our "base" won't bother to vote unless they believe Democrats will "change the course" polls show they are so unhappy with.
i would propose a simple strategy: "Accountability First."
this is an alternative to the inherent gut instinct of Democrats to focus on the minutiae of policy.
i'm for good policy as much as anyone. but good policy is impossible when the President deliberately and methodically defies laws enacted by Congress.
so we must start with "Accountability First."
accountability for all of the violations of law by this administration.
accountability through hearings with sworn testimony under oath under penalty of perjury.
accountability through prosecution of administration officials who committed crimes.
and accountability through impeachment if warranted by facts uncovered through hearings.
I fully agree
Bob, I agree that voters must know our agenda when we take power. While I'm concerned that accountability may be unpopular with a large segment of the voting public, largely because of the bad taste left from the Ken Starr fiasco, I say that adherence to core values must trump popularity. To make that acceptable to the voters, Democrats must strand for accountability across the board, even if it means holding fellow Democrats accountable, when justified, with the same zeal with which we go after Bush and his cadre of neocon criminals.
- Surviving Bush one day at a time.
http://tomcatsbox.spaces.live.com
check this out
this is awesome http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
perspective brings clarity
To these comments. Center as to the subject is critical. Center on this board is way different than center in the senate or house. When the dust settles this fall we will have a congress that will vote slightly left of center as considered by its political makeup. I assume we will come close to having a numerical advantage, and as such will pull the congress from its hard right position. Indeed it is happening now with the torture debate. Another example. Hillary is pulling to the "center" on some issues. Not my center, but the center of the senate, wacko as they can be.
My center was never misplaced, but carefully defined.
Now please react to my question, academic as it may be. Are we going to discuss the what ifs in specific legal terms??? and bring these discussions and opinions to the minds of our leaders??? The debate is now changing.
Look guys we have to move beyond mere definitions and semantics now. This is the time when our voices matter the most.The leaders we elect to go to Washington are waiting to hear our voices, and some are ready to kick the Bushies under the bus. Some have done so already. There is the technical possibility that several of the Bushies could face the death penalty. We need more headlines and debate.
"Vote or Die" DCH
First of all, you replied on
First of all, you replied on the wrong node. Secondly, when you promote the myth that Democrats are somehow "left of center," you are perpetuating a lie.
Your "carefully defined" center is from the DLC (Hillary, Bayh, Warner, the Nelsons, etc.) perspective, and is NOT representative of Democrats in general -- on this board, or at the national level. Liberalism and Democratic values are NOT "semantics," but the very foundation of what it means to be an American. We ARE the Party of the center, and always have been. It is you who are using the semantics of the neoconservative far-right, and many of us are tired of the false label.
As for your "question," Bob answered you on the correct node, and expressed the feelings of most of us here at Democrats.com:
http://www.democrats.com/torture-polls-1#comment-62144
When, in your experience have traditional Democrats, as a Party, NOT called for accountibility?
Sorry about the node thing
How dare you define "my center" like some erstwhile Hannity?I make no definition, just tell obvious truths. Here is another truth. You are looking for a fight where none exists. Go kick your dog.
When is it going to be fashionable to make allies here????
I don't mean to butt in, but:
Can't we as a Party make progress in defining the Center?
I would vote for reality as being centered.
In this post I'm only using Economics as an example of the center not being the center. That Democrats must conjole, persuade, press, etc in order to bring the majority into relative union.
Exactly the point Jim. The
Exactly the point Jim. The neocon/DLC center is so far to the right and out-of-balance, that anything to the left of Ghengis Kahn's politics is perceived as "left of center."
It is way past time that we, as Democrats, stopped being so meek about letting others label us. We are, and always have been, the true center of American Politics. Beginning with Raygun, the neocons have shifted the partisan politics of the People's government, and America's economy, to the extreme right.
If we are to right the wrongs, and restore a level playing field to this country, we must start with ferreting out the lies and misinformation which have been promoted by the Rush Limbaughs, the Newt Gingrichs, and the Hannitys, for the past 20 years.
I "dare" to define "your
I "dare" to define "your center" the same way that you are trying to define the DLC center as an "obvious truth" representative of real Democrats. And, it is you who sound more like Hannity in telling me to SHUT UP! I don't kick dogs -- only trolls and DLC "centrists."
There are hundreds of "visitors" who lurk, and read this site on a daily basis. When you, or anyone else, attempts to perpetuate the myth about Democrats being "Liberal Leftys," I will call bullshit on you as often as it takes. If the word "Liberal" bothers you, then you either don't know its meaning, or you have bought the neocon lies wholesale.
No, I am not looking for a fight, and I agree with your stance on accountability. But I will NOT allow the slanderous neocon "lefty" label to be promoted on Democrats.com -- period. You can take that to the bank. Allow me to point out the first Rule of Democrats.com:
There are many allies on this site, and we all have agreed to disagree on occasion. You may want to try that...
left on center
Submarine USS Wahoo ss238
Maui Bill,
I thought we were "left of right when not in the center
and only on Mondays and Fridays never too far over but
seldom in the middle and really the only ones left"!!!!