Everyone Needs A Dose of Reality
Before I get started, I think that it would help if I told you about my political leanings. I am a registered Independent that tends to lean slightly more Repbulican than Democrat. I was a big supporter of retiring Senator Bob Graham (D Florida) as both a governor and a senator and voted for Clinton in in 1996.
I think that like most Americans, I am not progressive but I am not conservative either. I am against gay marriage but for civil unions, I am pro-life to a degree but feel that there should be some limitation (I am against partial birth abortions). I am for a wholesale re-writing of our tax codes and Social Security (we have no choice, it will go bankrupt if we don't do something). I believe that words like "One Nation Under God" and "In God We Trust" are part of our heritage and should be left alone but there is also no place in our schools for actual prayer (it's a school, not a church).
As a moderate, I don't feel that either party is representing me right now. The Democrats have gone too far to the left, the Repbulicans have swayed too far to the right.
Both parties attempt to split the electorate with wedge issues. The Red Staters feel morally superior to the Blue Staters and the Blue Stater feel intellectually superior to the Red Staters. None of which is really true. I think that the problem the Democrats faces is that most Americans are moderates but when given a choice between the two extremes of the two major parties, moderates will lean slightly right (even though it is not our first preference).
With all of that said, our political process does work. The Democrats propose solutions that are way too liberal for most Americans while the Repbulicans propose solutions to those same issues that are too conservative. What happens? We debate, we sometime argue and come to some sort of compromise down the middle. That's the way it should work. You know you have found the correct solution when nobody is happy. I have two concerns however: 1) The rhetoric on both sides is too nasty, filled with demonization and personal attacks. Both sides accuse the other of such behavior but they are both equally guilty. 2) The Democratic party has been weakened greatly ever since the Reagan era losing control of the house, the senate and the majority of state houses. Our system only can work if both parties are strong and vibrant.
People on this board like to talk about George Bush as if he were the devil. If I went to a Republican board I am sure I can find the same rhetoric about Bill Clinton. The truth is, these are both people who are trying to make this country a better place, doing a job most of us wouldn't want. You may not like one or the other's policies but no one should doubt either one's desire to make this country better.
I am also a moderate
Being a moderate is a compromise and that is the way it should be. Not to much in either direction. I think the reason so many people demonize Bush is his attitude that if you win and election by a few votes, the ones who didn't vote for you should not get any recognition when it comes to legislation. They are the ones who first started the hate campaigns against Democrats or anybody who disagrees with them.I see Bush as a threat to the democracy we know because he has done things that no other President would do, like purging the CIA of enemies like Stalin did. Unfortunatly we will all feel the pain of this lame duck during the next four years because we havn't seen anything yet. My hope is that Americans will begin to see Republicans for what they really are. One group, one goal, and all the same. We used to differ in our politics but we were still Americans and came together as such. The right wing Republicans have divided America in order to win and it has worked for them but the hatred they used to do this will be with this country for generations and nothing will change that.They see America as money to be had and they do not care about one single person except their own nor the values that make us Americans. Democrats see it a lot different.They see individual issues, some good, some bad but generally things that impact our citizens daily. The hatred that Republicans use as a tool will come back to them more severly and that is only natural. If Democrats start today painting these Republicans what they really are instead of waiting until congressional elections, we can win some in two years but the leadership needs to start immediatly and do it daily. Unfortunatly it takes a long time for things to sink into the heads of Americans.
Both Sides Are Guilty
Let's face it both sides are equally as guilty, but I do think that Rush Limbaugh more than anyone else got the ball rolling, but both sides need to start. I think the attacks from both sides, make us look pathetic in the world, turn off the average American citizen to the political process and turn off potentials candidates from pursuing political careers.
Big Blue Donkey
But don't you think that people like Michael Moore and Al Franken are every bit as bad as fatty?
Sounds like you are the one i
Sounds like you are the one in need of a dose of reality.
Your President Lied to you about Iraq on purpose! He LIED ABOUT IMMINENT THREAT. He lied about the most solemn decision our government can ever make, a FUCKING WAR. Sorry you think that that claim is "extreme" but it's an honest claim.
Meanwhile The Republican party embraces venomous drivel like the "Swiftboat Lying Asshole Veterans," and worse, the slanderous effort was found to be effective! (In places like Tampa no less).
You say you live in Tampa, well I grew up in Tampa and It's as segregated as any other city of the South and full of racial prejudice bullshit, but that's another story...
Meanwhile, the Tampa Tribune, which is extremely conservative, and has always endorsed republican presidents, declined for the first time ever, to endorse a president in 2004. The reason? because this paper, a conservative bastion of thought for the duration of its existence, found the issue of Bush's dishonesty too unsavory to associate itsself with. Is the Tampa Tribune a "Extremist Liberal Paper?" NOT.
You dare mention Clinton. Bush doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Clinton. Clinton lied about his affair and he rightly got roasted for it, but Bush's lie is resulting in THOUSANDS OF DEATH'S EVEN AS WE SPEAK AND DESTABILIZING THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD! and we NEVER HAD A HONEST AND CONSTITUTIONSL DEBATE as to his motivations and evidence for such war.
Also, this adminsitration wants to AMEND OUR CONSTITUTION TO TAKE AWAY RIGHTS! THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE CONSTITUTION IS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO PRESCRIBE OUR RIGHTS!
This administration wants to WEAKEN AND CONTROL OUR JUDICIARY! What tyrannical Government was ever happy with a co-equal and independent judiciary? The JUDICIARY IS SUPPOSSED TO BE A NUISANCE TO THE EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES. It's called checks and balances! It is a last bastion of protection to the integrity of OUR CONSTITUTION and US!
And, to top it all off, G W CLAIMS TO ACT IN THE INTERESTS OF JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!
So forgive me if I think G W is the most horrible person ever to assume the presidency, but any other way to view this urgent situation does a disservice to the reality of the grievous injury G W has inflicted upon, and intends to CONTINUE inflicting upon, OUR CONSTITUTION and OUR COUNTRY.
We are NOT THE EXTREMISTS, we are the REALISTS, the EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES, period. We must ignore please for "moderation." SOME THINGS SHOULD NOT BE WHISPERED BUT SHOULD BE SHOUTED OUT ON THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS. Our president is a menace to the world AND HAS PLANTED THE SEEDS OF FACISM IN OUR COUNTRY! Maybe you can hide your eyes from it but we are brave enough to call it like it is!
Take A Chill Pill blue-planet
I know you must hate the situation with Healthcare in this country, but please blue-planet, take your meds.
All was trying to say is that both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Shout all you want but both sides need to speak with each other, not shout at each other. Your response is to act like an idiot behind the anonymity of your computer. What's with the anger? Grow up.
Should I improve the gene poo
Should I improve the gene pool too? You don't like it, tough. Go to some "I love GW Site" and live in denial for all I care.
LennyD -- Back off of Blue-Planet
LennyD, you seem like a somewhat reasonable person to me. I will say that while I disagree with a number of your post, you do present them in a sound and consistent manner. (Except for that gene pool comment -- you ought to go to Hell for that. Completely tasteless and out of place. )
Nonetheless, you have to understand that people's dislike -- and yes, for some, hatred -- is not without base. You have to understand that passions are running very deep, and that the Right has gone off the deep end as far as moderation is concerned. I have to say that I agree with your call for moderation; however, many Democrats have come to feel that they are under attack by the Republicans. Objectively, I have to say that I can totally understand this particular sentiment. This sentiment is not based on empty truths or half-lies -- it is based on how George W. Bush misled the American people. It has left an awful lot feeling that the war in Iraq is unjust, that our country is headed in the wrong direction, and that our government is taking an increasingly Right-slant on key issues. For the sake of brevity, I will not discourse on that subject matter; however, realize that people like blue-planet have every right to express themselves. Blue-planet feels the way that many people do after the 2000 and 2004 elections combined.
Consider this -- a lot of these same people who are so vocally against George Walker Bush are that way because of the lies he has told the American people. Honestly, Clinton was damn near removed from office for far less offensiveness than that of Bush. Whereas Clinton's transgressions were offensive, Bush's transgressions have cost an untold amount of lives -- and not just American ones at that. Richard Nixon and Andrew Johnson and William Clinton. All three of these men were nearly impeached for far less than the injustices that George Bush has committed.
People feel a great stirring in their emotions over George Bush because of him misleading them on the war in Iraq. I tell you this -- I voted for George Bush in 2000. Nonetheless, when I started to independently research the issues of 2000 and the war in Iraq it all snowballed. I began to look into every facet of Bush's administration. Whereas I had once stood behind him I began to realize a fundamental shift in my sentiments -- I had to accept the hard truth that I, like so many other Americans, had been mislead by Bush's charm and his lies. Furthermore, I ardently believe that had Bush not gone into Iraq so recklessly that he would have won this election in a landslide and would have surely gone down as a great president. Now his administration shall be marred by whispers of Halliburton, leaked information on CIA agents, and worse of all, Iraq. So, when you read a post like Blue-planet's you have to accept that she has every right to voice her opinion and indignation that Bush should not have been awarded another term.
I stand firmly by Blue-planet in his/her fiery oration because I was one of the many who woke up from the illusion Bush had cast. Blue-planet is only tapping into the reality behind one of the most nefarious administrations in recent political memory. Besides, you should be glad that s/he, and others like him/her, love this country as much as s/he does -- passion like that is what granted us our freedoms. Passion like that helps to keep a system of checks and balances in place so that we are able to freely express ourselves. While you may view her as sounding too over the top -- don't fail to remember your president's own words leading up to Iraq.
We must learn from the past, live in the present, and prepare for the future. In doing so, we increase the promise that is part of being human. Nothing in this world has ever been accomplished without passion.
One Good Point
Blue Planet certainly is passionate--but "oration"--not quite the word I would use to describe that screed. Anyway, you do raise a very valid point about Bush winning in a landslide except for Iraq. Think about what that implies:
- That the entire world was certain that Saddam possessed weapons, including France, the UN, Russia, Jordan, the UK, US Intelligence as well as Gore, Kerry, Edwards, HR Clinton, Bill Clinton, Daschle and others. Bush, and only Bush, new that the information was false, so that only he was lying.
- He then took the biggest political risk of his career by going to war, which he would have known in advance would expose his "lie."
- Which leads us to what his real reason could have been--for the oil? that would explain why oil is so cheap now, right? Besides, oil is a fungible commodity...the easier and cheaper way to get it would have been to buy it from Saddam, who was more than willing to sell. To profit a single corporation? Absurd.
When viewed in this light, the whole house of cards collapses. The only possible reason Bush could have gone to war in Iraq is that he believed that they had the weapons, and that Saddam posed a threat (note that Bush NEVER stated "imminent threat"). So either the intel was wrong, and Bush was deceived along with everyone else (this would have required that Saddam secretly destroyed known weapons caches, presumably so that he could remain under sanctions) or that the weapons did in fact exist, and were moved to Syria and Lebanon during our 12 month "rush to war" This alone, without getting into Saddam's ongoing support of numerous terrorist organizations, his scheme to remove sanctions through Oil-for-food bribes then re-constitute his weapons plan as detailed in the Duelfer report, and his murder of hundreds of thousands of people (some with "non-existent" chemical weapons) constituted enough rationale to go to war. True, the level of insurrection was greater than anticipated, but I predict that elections will take place in January; it will be all down hill for the terrorist after that. The long-range result of democratic Iraq and Afghanistan will be the collapse of oppressive, anti-American regimes in Iran and possibly Saudi Arabia. Just something to think about.
As for Clinton, I agree that lying under oath was not his most egregious offense--that would have to go to providing China with nuclear and delivery technology in exchange for illegal campaign contributions.
IMMINENT THREAT - QUOTES
IMMINENT THREAT QUOTES:
"This man poses a much graver threat than anybody could have possibly imagined."
• President Bush, 9/26/02
"This is about imminent threat."
• White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 2/10/03
"Absolutely."
• White House spokesman Ari Fleischer answering whether Iraq was an "imminent threat," 5/7/03
"Iraq poses a serious and mounting threat to our country. His regime has the design for a nuclear weapon, was working on several different methods of enriching uranium, and recently was discovered seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/29/03
"No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/19/02
"Well, of course he is.”
• White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett responding to the question “is Saddam an imminent threat to U.S. interests, either in that part of the world or to Americans right here at home?”, 1/26/03
"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons. Iraq poses a threat to the security of our people and to the stability of the world that is distinct from any other. It's a danger to its neighbors, to the United States, to the Middle East and to the international peace and stability. It's a danger we cannot ignore. Iraq and North Korea are both repressive dictatorships to be sure and both pose threats. But IRAQ IS UNIQUE In both word and deed, Iraq has demonstrated that it is seeking the means to strike the United States and our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/20/03
Pointless!!
What a load of crapola. Why would anyone such as yourself, obviously a true believer in the Faux News Network line of thought even bother to post on this forum? Some of these lines are so old (Everyone thought Saddam had WMD's, Bush never said "Imminent threat",Saddam couldn't possibly have destroyed the WMD's, they must be in Syria, etc., etc, blah, blah, blah. Don't you people ever get tired of trying to spread this compost around hoping that something will take root? The fact is that the Bush administration targeted Saddam the day after they took power. It is also a fact that the day after 9/11 they started looking for any excuse to link that attack to Saddam. If there truly had been cooperation in the Congress, the 9/11 Commission would have been set up at that time to investigate the biggest security failure in the history of this country instead of allowing the Bush warmongers to re-direct the country's anguish.
Blue-Planet
Yeah I am all for you improving the gene pool. By the way, I am not a Bush supporter. I just believe we don't need left-wing and right-wing bomb throwers we need to put civility back in the process. Obviously you think that you have found a better approach.
Bush threw civility out the w
Bush threw civility out the window along with the constitution. We don't need civility, we need to expose him for the menace that he is.
If you have a fire burning down your neighborhood, do you walk away from your neighboor's house?, do you meekly knock once and walk away, or do you pound on the fucking door till he gets the message that everything is burning down?
Obviously G W's actions do not seem to alarm you in the slightest way, but that shouldn't suprise me coming from someone who laughs at people who committ suicide to protest this horrible goverment's abuses... Your gene pool comment was very revealing.
Blue-Planet, Lenny D
Lenny,
I concur with everything you have said, I am a moderate-independent, and i visit this board to find the real voice of the "democrats.com" or Democratic party. I hear what Blue is saying, but man, I am of the belief that he would be much more successful if his negative energy was channeled or leveraged more sensibly.
I recognise that we live in a capitalist society...live in another country for 5 years or more and you will see it clearly. This will never change.It is built into our fabric of everyday Americas life. It comes from the TV, and permeates all society. I accept it, and while not happy with it, i do accept it. How amd i going to operate in this environment of unbridled capitalism and worship of money? That is what i ask myself frequently.
Perhaps everyone here has our expectations irrationally set as to what our politicians will do, what they can achieve, and how they should act. I personally believe they all (from Hillary to Frist) all owe some people big time. Career politicians make decisions to perpetuate their existance in DC.
Here is a thought on expectations...If I get a flu shot, im not going to congratulate my President, nor am i going to slag him off if i DONT get one.
Should the president not be cognisant of oil's importance to our country's security, and economic strength or should he ignore it completely? His constituents (you me, the reds, and blues) all may drive cars to work, and we need to eat. So what is the "rational", realistic balance of these needs as a big growing country such as ours?
Why do the top 10 senators of our country have so much money? how did they get it? Providing good quality products at a fair rate of exchange, or did they rip off people? Do they owe favors? (you bet they all do)
We dont live in a perfect society, and i accept that. To me, this isnt utopia and never will be. This is America, warts and all.
I looked at a political career to change America, but after consultation with my wife, and my business partner, we decided we would need to be beholden to special interests (who would happen to be my consituents also) too much to get the satisfaction we longed for by entering politics. I've met the big boys, their public persona is markedly different then their personal persona, trust me.
My solution to my cynicism about DC, America, capitalism, and our misdirected politicians is two fold:
1) if i set my expectations low, i wont be disappointed. I dont finger point, because every decision is multifaceted
(if it werent, Kerry would have denounced the expiration of the Assult Weapons Ban BEFORE THEY EXPIRED WHILE HE WAS A SENIOR SENATOR) 2 months ago, and would not have cast the deciding vote in 1998 that killed the Kyoto Treaty See: http://144.16.65.194/hpg/envis/doc97html/globalclime724.html)
2) if i channel my energies towards local charities/ organizations i find this significantly more rewarding.
Jay Scottsdale
Good post - UNTIL
You added pure partisan spin two paragraphs from the bottom.
1) It did no good for democratic Representatives/Senators to denounce anything. They had/have no power. They're shut out of the legislative process at every possible turn.
2) Kerry's vote no more killed the Kyoto Treaty than any other vote against it. That is pure political spin used to attack Kerry. It's like attempting to convince me that swing voters decide elections. Their votes are no more important or powerful than any other votes cast. It's pure political spin used by politicians to discourage Americans from engaging in meaningful verbal debate on the issues.
No cookie.
If pure religion is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. ~John Leland, July 5, 1802.
Fire Burning?
I think the point is that if we yell and scream and jump up and down we will just be considered screaming liberals and we will be cut out of the political process. I am not thrilled with George Bush but you make him out to be far worse than anybody we have had in the Oval Office. When you think about it he seems more like the Norm. Just to look at the Presidents that we had has since I have been born:
Kennedy - invaded Cuba and tried to have another head-of-state killed. His justice department secretly recorded intimate details of Civil rights activists.
Johnson - may have the worst of all. Can you say 58,000 dead.
Nixon - Watergate, Watergate, Watergate, need I say more?
Reagan - Iran Contra
Bush 41 - Panama invasion
Clinton - White Water, Travelgate, Monicagate, lying under oath
Bush 43 - Iraq, Patriot Act
That's 7 of the last 9 Presidents! That just leaves Ford and Carter. Two nice guys or were both very mortal, and completely incompetent.
Bush bad? Yes The worst? Probably not. We are really good at choosing our leaders, aren't we?
Relatively speaking
I will step up to defend blue planet as well. We are in the predicament we are in because we have been genteel with the blatantly unscroupulous for far too long. You do not throw pearls before swine. I think the fire analogy works just fine, because our legacy of form of government is on fire. We ARE trudging toward fascism. Take a look at these links, and see if you don't recognize what goes on around us today:
http://www.qi-whiz.com/mizar/fascist.html
http://radicalriffs.com/fascism.htm
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm
Is GWB the worst pResident ever YES! He has stolen 2 elections. That's enough for me, but it would takes hours (literally) to bring up all the nasty facts about this person with the questionable mental stability.
If he's the norm, then we have arrived in Hell, my friend.
Dubya
I am sorry but I can't stand by and let someone actually believe that Dubya actually has any good part about him, except being the best liar ever. He has ripped this country apart, including the constitution and the Bill of Rights, this man was selected in 2000, and we still don't know what happened in 2004, he had no business invading Iraq, this war is a disaster, he had no plan except to go in, the rest he figured would be easy or someone else would clean up, we are going to be in Iraq for years (5-10 atleast) these insurgents are to the point of reaching an all out Civil War, this is a tragic disaster just like King George's presidency. Bush hates Democracy, thats why he is a Fascist, the Patriot is an absolute stampede over the Constitution.
"The only thing necessary for the perpetuation of evil is for good people to do nothing." ~Jane Elliott
I agree with KarlMarx- Bush i
I agree with KarlMarx- Bush is an evil racist fascist president. there are no redemable qualities about him... he needs to go. Bush will destroy America
Some quite random thoughts...
The Pledge: The phrase, One nation under god, divides the country. The original phrase was--one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That is what the writer of the pledge, a clergyman, felt was just the right touch. People for the inclusion of 'under god' do not understand the English language or precise meanings of words. Note that the writer used liberty and justice instead of liberty and equality for all. He said that we were not equal...at the time he wrote this. At that time, minorities were not equal, women were not equal; the word 'justice' did apply, even in the 1880s.
For those of you too young to remember, the pledge was not changed--adding 'under god' until the mid 50s. Those of us who graduated from high school as late as '53, did not recite the under god since it was not a part of the pledge at that time.
Another part of the pledge you younger folk don't know about: Probably dating to WW I, the pledge started with your right hand over one's heart. When one recited 'I pledge allegiance TO THE FLAG' your right arm came up to a 45 degree angle, pointing at the flag with the palm of your hand up. This part was eliminated during the early WW II years because of it's resemblance to the Nazi salute.
In god we trust, as a motto, was not the motto until the late 40s. The original motto was E Pluribus Unim(from many, one).
Religious groups forced both these changes on the pledge and motto.
There are too many falacious comments throughout this thread to even comment on. Lies and distortions are very much the province of the scallawags on the far right.
Because of this, Liberals today are very much correct when discussing the traits of the Conservatives who are only good at lying, cheating, stealing, and murder. These four truths are so very obvious by their behavior.
To claim that the Dems are as guilty as the neocons smacks of unreality.
Devil?
I'm sure repugs call Clinton the devil, but we have the proof that Bush is evil:
http://66.135.33.70/bushisantichrist.com/
Besides, Limbaugh started it. When he shuts up, I shut up.
Silence is the Enemy!
Silence is the Enemy!