National Sales Tax
I've become exhausted by bad news today. Please go to AOL and vote NO on a National Sales Tax. It is designed to give those with less even less.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/business/article.adp?id=20050303100709990014&ncid=NWS00010000000001
The vote count as of now is around 62% in favor!!!
Now a consumer tax also
I tell you Greenspan needs to be retired or tested for those proteins in his spinal fluid that indicate Alzheimer's. Or maybe he is just mean and wants to take more money away from people who need to buy food or clothes or school supplies and who make the minimum wage. Or maybe he is the evil marionette of Karl Rove. When will these people stop? We have named every new military objective ( Shock and Awe,etc.). Bush is now mounting an attack on the citizens of the United State called "Scare and Lie". On another tangent, George now seems to remember Osama bin Laden whom he forgot before he remembered him. Liars, liars!!!
After Kerry lost I was coming
After Kerry lost I was coming down an old gravel road up in the mountains and saw a Kerry sticker on a van parked at the bottom. I had to get out and talk to the person. He was a Democrat in a PURE RED area. He probably was socially conservative. We spoke a little bit and I mentioned cutting to zero, taxes on necessities. He in turn spoke about a National Sales Tax. He mentioned it was introduced by a Republican but a good idea is a good idea. GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ! We have to keep speaking up because ignorance abounds.
Done....is there light at the
Done....is there light at the end of the tunnel yet? Most days it doesn't feel like there is.....
Sometimes I think the light a
THANKS! Sometimes I think the light at the end of the tunnel is the damned darkness. AKA the shit hitting the fan and breaking the Hypnotic State of America. I guess you can't really call that a victory for good but rather evil imploding.
Kind of a reverse Doppler eff
Kind of a reverse Doppler effect, or a fade to blue (black).
Hey that's eerie. I did not s
Hey that's eerie. I did not see your blue black comment and I made a black and blue one.
Sometimes Democrats suffer fo
Sometimes Democrats suffer for their successes. Does the average voter know when Democrats save them? We end up black and blue with little credit. I am so thankful for new media outlets!!! Some of those I speak to still don’t believe me that Bush tried to cut overtime pay. Should he have won that, would he have won the election?
Hey Jimbo, not to make your r
Hey Jimbo, not to make your rainy day worse, but they did in fact cut overtime pay last year. They allowed reclassification of many types of positions as supervisory positions, thus making them exempt and not eligible for time-and-a-half.
My sister was one of them. She now works more hours for the same hourly rate, in effect losing money. My parents were so proud to hear of my sister's promotion. I didn't have the heart to tell them why she was promoted.
CRAP ON A STICK! I knew Bus
CRAP ON A STICK! I knew Bush first won that battle, but the last thing I saw was that somehow the House did "something" so the new rules would or could not be enforced. I had an ill family member at the time so I was under a rock.
Sorry about your Sister! That really sucks. I told my brother in law NOT to let them promote him or give him a title just in case it would pass. I hope your entire family knows Bush for what he is.
I've always voted for others. This time around I knew the moron might get my kids killed so for the first time I voted in self defense!
My family is blue from top to
My family is blue from top to bottom, even without the Doppler shift. Not a repug anywhere because they know I'd open a can of whoopass on 'em.
My oldest son (age 10) told me about how he explained how Bush is ruining our country in Social Studies. This is the year that they start teaching that in elementary school. I was sooo proud, [sniffle].
Hope everyone is well in your family now.
Beautiful to hear!!! Tell yo
Beautiful to hear!!! Tell your son I am proud of him as well.
My Mom was ill. What an incredible human being. She was sweeter and gentler than anyone I have every known. Her spine was made of steel. She listened to talk radio all her life and I remember growing up hearing her blurting out under her breath “OH HORSESHIT!” to Right Wing nonsense on the radio. She was given a few days to live and lived for 16 months cooking and cleaning and laughing most of the way. We spoke in her hospital room about Bush and the Republicans and she told me “maybe the pendulum will swing the other way but it sure looks like they’ve sent the world to hell in a hand basket”. Just as she lived, she died with perfect timing on NOV 1st! She passed the torch to me at exactly the right time.
I'm so sorry. She sounds won
I'm so sorry. She sounds wonderful. Surely she is in a place where she will never see the likes of Bush.
Thanks so much! In my design
Thanks so much! In my design work I have noticed that every negative can be viewed as a positive, from some other perspective. (e.g. PostIt Note adhesive is not very strong. GOOD!) Well one thing Republicans are good for is it makes eternal peace NICE!
I think you know me well enough to know I am not being grim, just Jim!
Okay so I really need to tell you a little bit about Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy but don’t want to spoil it for you. I’ll only mention that in it, a computer is built to answer the greatest question! The question of the meaning of everything. It’s an Analog computer and the program must run for Billions of years. A priesthood is established to take care of the mainframe throughout its existence. You'll never guess the answer!
Okay I’ll only mention one more thing. Three “Noah’s Arc” like space ships are sent out when a GIANT space goat is headed for the Earth to eat it. On the first ship are all Earth’ laborers, on the second all Earth’s artsy and creative types like scientists, on the third is all the middlemen. Guess which ship was launched and whether there really was a GIANT SPACE GOAT coming?
Okay I’ll only mention one additional ……
Jim, I'm so sorry about your Mom!
She sounds like a great lady! No, she certainly won't have to worry
about seeing Bush & Company, where she is.
I lost my stepfather over two and a half years ago. Perhaps that's why I
like to mention the good things he did.
He was quite conservative but fair.
This would have pissed him off!
According to the following rationale;
Bush's advisers have spoken favorably of the economic benefits that could be achieved by moving from a system that taxes income to one that taxes consumption.
A low income family of six people would pay more
tax than a high income family of two people.
Did I get the equation right?
This is f***ing nuts. I voted NO!
THANKS! Sorry to hear abo
THANKS! Sorry to hear about your Step Father. Yep this is a different era. This is not Conservative like before.
Note that the Poll asked about fairness. Why should the Rich be taxed at a higher rate? Listen up masses: You fought all your life to be in the economic condition you are now in. Fair or not, a lot of that condition is contingent upon some paying more tax than others. You tell me what is fair after you’re moaning in agony over how much less money you have if a National Sales Tax is passed.
As to the purely philosophical question of why the Rich should pay more I offer the following for a start:
1) In a fight for higher wages those at the top form informal monopolies to keep their wages high. Those in the middle (or bottom) can only do this by grouping together. A nearly impossible thing to do for millions of people except at the VOTING booth!
2) The middle and the poor give up their Sons and Daughters as Soldiers to defend this Nation. These Soldiers are NOT paid what the market can bare but rather what the will of the ruling party is at that time. They are OWED MORE! Higher taxes for the wealthy allow for lower taxes for them!
3) This Nation needs defending in partial proportion to its wealth. The wealthy therefore must pay more for its defense!
..but the bottom line is: are you ready to have less money in your pocket if it passes?
For too many people
and this includes myself,
we can hardly get by right now.
This is especially true in So.Cal's
housing market. Over 60-70% of
earnings go towards paying rent or house payments.
"Getting by with less" is what we have mastered.
I, too, am sorry about your m
I, too, am sorry about your mom.....it sounds like she was one cool lady! I think the horseshit thing must be generational; my uncle used to sign all of his letters "love and kisses and all that horseshit", changing it to h.s. after I had kids that could read :). He was 74 when he died last year.
Thank you so much and sorry t
Thank you so much and sorry to hear about your loss as well. You’re probably right about the horseshit. Very funny!
Thanks! He was sick for a lo
Thanks! He was sick for a long time (emphysema), so it was for the best. We still miss him, though......
Thank you ,Jim.;-)
I hope you and golfmonkey don't
mind if I throw my science
questions your way.
Golfmonkey, is that OK?
Fire away...
Fire away...
Happy to ablige.
Happy to ablige.
Thanks Jim and Golfmonkey
I should has phrased it- future questions.
Right now, I don't have any. I just finished
reading my e-mail from JPL entitled
'Moonbeams Shine on Einstein,Galileo
and Newton'.
The article discussed the strong equivalence theory
leading to Einsteins theory of relativity and brought
us to the Lunar Laser Ranging experiment.(moon&earth falling towards the sun at the
same rate)The theory still blows my mind so I tested it with a napkin and a fork.
Voila! Both hit the ground at the same time.
Problem is, my curious son tested it with one of the cats and a pillow!(Unknown by me)
The result was the same, but kitty was not happy! Kitty is fine and son still lives.
Luckily, the drop was three feet onto carpet.
This has nothing to do with National Sales Tax. I spit on National Sales Tax!
Equivalence Theory Experiment
To formally prove this, you need to butter a piece of bread and tie it onto your cat's back, butter side up. The elevate the cat about 10 feet up and drop it. Because the bread wants to land butter side down on the floor and the cat wants to land on its feet, a cosmic vortex will be induced where the cat will levitate about 1 foot above the floor and rotate back and forth in an oscillatory fashion in some unexplained equilibrium.
Try it, I'm not kidding.
OK, yes I am.
ROFL!! Golfmonkey,
Don't let my son find this post.
OMG he'd be on it in a New York minute.
The cats love him, but they are very
wary of his curiousity!
As much as I'd like to, I can
As much as I'd like to, I can't take full credit for that one. That's a Steven Wright oldie-but-goodie.
;-)
It's a goodie
all wright!
GM, you should condense this
GM, you should condense this theorem and submit it here:
http://www.currentsource.com/Current%20Source%20murphy.htm
[Edit} Pay particular attention to this one:
I laughed so hard I think I s
I laughed so hard I think I soiled myself. I had to bookmark this site. I think this one is the best:
That is good!
I'm saving it for future reference.
Goodnight, all.
I'll catch up with you all, tomorrow.
Don't let the Repugs bite...
Don't let the Repugs bite...
;-)
;-)
Wow,,,how sad that most people.....
actually think a national sales tax is more fair than an income tax. The right wing media has really twisted people around if they can actually believe this insulting proposal
Spirituality exists without organized religion
...after the rapture, we get all their stuff!
IT REALLY STRUCK ME JUST HOW
IT REALLY STRUCK ME JUST HOW MUCH WORK AND MONEY WE NEED FOR NEW MEDIA!!!!!!!!!!!
The funny thing about AOL poles is that they seem to go Right and Left! It may be that "non political" people vote in them. That means their minds can be changed but clearly the Republicans have WON the taxes bad battle. Progressives need to state clearly this is a ZERO SUM game folks. They pay less then you pay more. You want that? Yes? GOOD, ENJOY! I'll check back with you when you're moaning.
It's totally fair. Poor peop
It's totally fair. Poor people will pay EXACTLY the same amount of sales tax on their new Porsche as rich people. What don't you understand about that?
Scientific American did a one
Scientific American did a one page article titled “Undercutting Fairness”. It explains that the poor and middle class pay up to five times (as a percentage of income) on State and local taxes than the top 1%.
A few months ago I saw another Scientific American at my doctors office and opened it. In it were responses to that article. ALL NEGATIVE. All attacking calling it unfair. I never thought to write the editor when I read the article because I figured those reading the magazine would be in agreement. Gotta fight everywhere!
Oh yea...where was my head? LOL
Spirituality exists without organized religion
...after the rapture, we get all their stuff!
Consumption tax vs. wage tax; which is worse?
What do you guys think...
Right now, everyone pays a 15.3% tax on wages (yeah, yeah... up to the different FICA cut-off points). I would consider trading that for a national sales tax, provided the rate was much less. Even an 8% national sales tax, which would effectively double sales taxes (in my area), still leaves people better off.
Since the current FICA tax system hurts low-income earners, reducing that hurt is good (in my book). Also, the consumption tax wouldn't have a ceiling similar to FICA taxes, so it would take more money from high earners/consumers.
Thoughts?
(note: I've posted in other forums that social security taxes have nothing to do with social security benefits... they're all mixed in with the rest of the government's revenue/expenditure totals. Breaking the psychological link in voters' minds between "MY social security taxes" and "MY social security benefits in the future" would do us a lot of good)
First, just because government loots
doesn't change the fact that it's Social Security insurance.
Secondly, I can see how a 'flat tax' would help America's rich fat cats, but I fail to see how a 'consumption' tax would help people who spend every cent they earn, just to survive.
Finally, this administration is the very last administration that should be trusted with 'reform,' especially when it comes to money.
Why not just make someone like Saddam Hussein, head of the UN? It makes about as much sense.
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
SS insurance, flat tax, & reform
The name attached to Social Security doesn't matter. It's a program to ensure that the elderly have an acceptable level of income. That was the original (very good) idea.
The manner in which that old-age insurance is financed matters A LOT less. Originally, SS taxes were not a burden (~2% of wages). Now, they are a huge burden on low-income earners. That system of financing needs to change. We can still provide old-age insurance, just finance it through other sources of Fed Gvmn't revenue.
As far as how a consumption tax would help low-income earners... only in the context of trading a wage tax for a consumption tax does it benefit. Say you're spending all $85 of your post-FICA $100 paycheck (current 15% tax rate). End the wage tax and your pay jumps to $100. You spend that original $85 on the same stuff as before, but it now costs you $93.50 (assuming a new 10% consumption tax on the $85 in goods... $8.50 in taxes). You're left with an extra $6.50.
The 'tax trade-off' benefits people who are spending all of their take-home paychecks right now. As long as the consumption tax rate is less than the current 15% wage tax, low-income earners end up ahead.
As far as trusing the administration... why the hell do we have to wait for Bush to propose something? This has been driving me crazy... where are the policy proposals originating from Dem leaders? I would love to see substantive bills introduced. The Bush Admin would have a hard time saying no to well thought-out proposals. We need to seize the initative!
Other than saving on overhead
Other than saving on overhead (the IRS) if this saves the poor slobs some tax it must be made up by others paying more if all services are to be retained. Is this what you propose?
Exactly!
Right now, wage income above the FICA cut-off is tax free (as far as the wage tax). All of that money would now be subject to a consumption tax when it was spent.
Considering how the top end of income distribution skews to VERY high levels, a lot of additional income would be subject to this new consumption tax when that income was spent.
A key point in all this is that a consumption tax would have to be across-the-board. Trying to only tax certain items just leads to changes in consumption patterns (the 'yacht tax' in the 80's destroyed New England's boat industry because everyone stopped buying boats).
Of course, we would be ending the FICA tax structure in its current form that 'funds' social security and medicare. As I've said before, these are excellent insurance programs that should be funded out of general government revenues.
The existing FICA structure has led people to mistakenly believe that SS is a retirement savings program. That's why people resist means-testing SS benefits. I find it ridiculous that someone earning $40K/yr. is taxed at 15% to fund SS benefits to someone with a million dollar retirement portfolio.
I was ready to jump into the
I was ready to jump into the details of your post but a question occured to me: Why are rich people for this National Sales Tax?
Because they're just not finished looting
and it looks like they may not get their hands on the old peoples' money.
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
so pessimistic there, necco..
so pessimistic there, necco... try to look on the bright side
Ain't no bright side
N fiddledeedee T
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
Why rich like the idea
Idealistic Interpretation:
CEOs and self-made rich people tend to have good grasps of economics. A flat wage tax (and/or a progressive income tax) distort people's behavior. This distortion makes the economy less efficient, and everyone ends up with less. (Note: this ignores any effect of government transfers... which are hard enough to measure). An across-the-board consumption tax distorts behavior a lot less, so increases overall welfare in the economy. Of course, the least-distortive tax is a flat per-head tax, which fortuately will never happen. Additionally, taxing (punishing) consumption will help boost national savings rates, which needs to happen. Taxing/punishing wage earning is a bad idea.
Pessimistic (and probably more accurate) Interpretation:
Many people who are pro-consumption tax see it as an ultimate replacement for the income tax. This would represent a huge decrease in Federal Government revenue, since it couldn't set the consumption tax rate high enough to make up for all the lost revenue from the old progressive income tax. This thinking goes along with the 'starve the beast' school of thought.
My thoughts:
I haven't seen anyone important talk about ending FICA and imposing a national sales tax (while leaving income taxes untouched). I like this for all the reasons in previous posts.
I'm afraid we would have to t
I'm afraid we would have to take a very long detour on a progressive income tax making the economy less efficient. I believe that is FALSE in part because it over estimates the importance of rich peoples contribution to the economy and underestimates the middle class contribution.
So as not to take us too far a field I’ll pick only one example: OLD MONEY. Due to genetic variation the offspring of a genuinely creative individual may be a DUD. Money in their hands would be far better off distributed to the masses in hopes of hitting on a genetically superior individual (as far as wealth generating ability is concerned). This is one reason to keep the Estate Tax.
Yes it is true that allowing people (or pigeons) to act selfishly (in a sufficiently large system) can lead to more for everyone. An economy however is an N body system with a great many feedback loops, hysteresis, etc. It can be improved by going beyond the simple notion of laissez faire. The above shows one example of that. Moving infinitely along one would also have to admit that god could do it. I put god in there with a small g because I mean to express that an all knowing being could do it without resorting to anything other than knowledge of the dynamics of the system.
You can of course argue that for all practical purposes we have nobody god like enough to help out but that will take us further askew.
Uh. Ok. Am I a neanderthal
Uh. Ok.
Am I a neanderthal, or did you just say something that flew totally over my head?
Guess I'll just hike up my loincloth, grab my club and drag my knuckles all the way back to my cave.
Thag.