Adive for Democrats!
It's called NATION-BUILDING!
Everything after the capture of Saddam is NATION-BUILDING!
Another $80 billion. For What? N A T I O N - B U I L D I N G !
Democrats need to drive that message home. All other criticisms of the war have not been effective.
Why are our soldiers, our sons, our husbands being put in harms way?
N A T I O N - B U I L D I N G !
The president asks for another $80 billion. For what?
N A T I O N - B U I L D I N G !
Frame the war in a way that makes most Americans uncomfortable. Republicans say the was is about freedom. You say the war is about N A T I O N - B U I L D I N G !
Does anybody have a clue?
Does anybody have a clue why Bush continues to ask for money for Iraq and Afghanistan? He was just asking for $80 billion dollars - what is it really for? "Oppressed people of Afghanistan will know the generosity of America" Bush told us. Afghanistan is run by warlords - we showed them!
From what I understand, there are billions of dollars that we haven't even spent in Iraq yet - supposedly earmarked for "rebuilding" costs. Why can't he redistribute the funds? Come on, do we really think we are going to rebuild all the shit we have blown up over there? No way! Bush started that war, the U.S. taxpayer gets to pay for it but why can't he spend the money already allotted BEFORE asking for more? I just wonder where all the money is! Wonder what kind of "creative accounting" is going on up there in Washington!
The $80B is not for rebuildin
The $80B is not for rebuilding, it's for operations. From GlobalSecurity.org:
They simply cannot provide enough security to the workers doing the rebuilding. From NationalDefense.org
One has to wonder how much of
One has to wonder how much of those "other supplies" will come from Halliburton?
Test.
Test.
See you are Wise
You are Very wise cause now it works! Thanks for the help! And old - it's only a number!
;-)
;-)
I like the way you think, googa1
My number is past the half century mark, yet I
relate well to people less than half my age!
How did it work out with your friend?
I live in a red zone- Bill said something about
Ahnold redistricting our county into a red zone from Orange County
to Sacramento-yikes! We are turning a bit purple in some spots-
Anyway, I know what it's like trying to discuss our country and it's
future with the die-hards! They really don't want to listen!
I approach when there's an opening for discussion. Otherwise, what I say falls
on deaf ears- what's the point? My Repub neighbor and I have agreed to disagree.
How did it go?
wise golfmonkey..educate me
If you were President of the United States and pre-emptively invaded another country, please list-in order- your TOP priorities for getting the country back on track. I'm arguing with someone...looking to see if I am thinking like a true democrat.
Hope this helps
Just my $0.02, but here it goes:
BTW, I'm not that wise, I'm just a liberal with a laptop and a day off.
Sounds like you agree - Security!
My Republican friend tells me that WE are doing the right thing in Iraq. I say we don't know what in the hell we are doing in Iraq. She says that she is right because we should "rebuild" first. I say that I am right because we should offer "security" first - without that how can you expect to rebuild - especially when they are bombing the very jobs just completed. Then she tells me that you need to rebuild - like the school systems first, to show the Iraqis we have good intentions. Good intentions would be to offer security because no one wants to send their child out into the streets with the violence even if the school is in BETTER shape than before the war.
I guess this is why the nation is so divided. Because she thinks I am crazy and I think she is wrong. Is there any help for us as a nation to ever unite? Or has one pary turned so far right and expect me to do the same? But I will follow them because they are not using the right path!
Just tell her that we tried t
Just tell her that we tried that. We tried rebuilding schools, power plants, telephone networks, sewer systems and such. But they keep getting destroyed or even worse, booby trapped. The insurgents (or freedom fighters or terrorists or whatever) are winning because they are preventing us from helping the Iraqis, and they will not just go away. They will fight us for however long we are there, history has shown that.
My biggest problem with all of this is that we shouldering the entire burden. We face all of the expenses, troop casualties and humiliation. We may never get out of it.
Ask your republican "friend" if she would let her kids go fight this war. That usually shuts them right up.
Okay, I may get booted for qu
Okay, I may get booted for quoting Pat Buchanan here, but he was on Meet the Press last Sunday and what he had to say makes a lot of sense. And it just may help with your Republican friend to quote a conservative. While I dislike him almost all of the time, I have found I agree with him occasionally, and it is apparent that he does not like Bush (even though he voted for him; go figure). He said that the reason that we were attacked on 9/11 was not because of our freedoms, as Bush stated, but because of our intervention in the M.E. They do not hate our freedoms, nor do they want to take them away. What they do want is for us to keep our nose out of their business (I am paraphrasing here, here is a link to the interview http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954712/.) So, if we can train their forces, and then get the hell out of there, then the insurgency just may die out and they can get back to the business rebuilding their own country. As for ever uniting as a country, I don't know. I have found that the Republicans I know have completely closed their minds to any education on matters concerning this administration. When I told one friend that I could not bear to look or listen to Bush and that I could not understand why the media was always touting him as likable before the election, she said that she thought he was "adorable". I could have barfed right then and there....
Pat is one of the few remaini
Pat is one of the few remaining "old time" conservatives, and does not agree with the neocons most of the time. While he still has some spooky ideas, and is a right-winger, he at least doesn't pretend to be something he is not. The same can not be said for most Republican politicians.
I'll hold the barf bag for you - GROSS!
Thank you LisaZ! I will leave the article on my friends desk to read. I just can't understand how anybody thinks we are safer when we have invaded 2 countries (ok, Afghanistan had it coming) and threatening everbody else in the neighborhood. Since Iran and Syria have joined forces, I keep wondering when the M.E. countries will get tired of Bush's threats and pre-emptively attack our troops in Iraq.
googa1
I was just wondering if you were able to get through to your friend? I ran into the friend who thinks Bush is "adorable" today and I made an attempt to talk with her. I have been compiling various articles that I have read and printing them out. I was planning on putting them all together to give her to read. So I mentioned them to her and asked if she would read them. She flat out said no. Then she asked if I would read anything that she has. I said yes and she seemed surprised. The thing is, I really would, because I genuinely want to know where they are coming from; I want to understand why we can see the same thing so incredibly differently. Anyway, she went on about how nothing is perfect but when you have certain convictions then you have to go with those. Now she once told me that she used to be a Democrat and that she voted for Clinton and when I asked her what made her switch, she said it was partial birth abortion. I don't know what her other convictions are. Today, she seemed pretty peeved that I even brought it up and she ran off as soon as she could; I am thinking that we will not be having this conversation again. So I am 0 for 2 on converting people. I hope you had more success! :)
Don't give up LisaZ!
Yes, some people CAN be reached - I have done so! You are completely right, some people are completely closed minded. No matter what evidence you have, they will never believe you - like O.J. Simpson case! But hold your head high, you are better than your friend! If you are willing to read and try to understand someone else view then that is a hell of a lot better than sticking your head in the sand. Ignorance is bliss and sometimes I wish I could go back to getting a good nights sleep without having nightmares about the doom of this country.
I read the book my friend suggested but when I asked her to read the 9/11 Report she said no! I find it strange that she doesn't care what happened that day - it amazes me. I keep hearing her repeat the crap in the news that it was Clinton’s fault because of this and that - wait a minute, Clinton was not on watch when this happened, Bush was! She tells me 9/11 happened because of Clinton policies - Bush just got there when it happened, it’s not his fault! I had to run off copies in the 9/11 Report to support the fact that Clinton was going after Bin Laden as much as he could. I almost begged her to read it but to no avail. I don't think she wants any evidence to Bush in a unflattering light. Then I think where is my sanity liking anyone who is protecting Bush - GROSS!
My friend has a problem with abortion too. She says that it is totally wrong. She says that every woman must be made to have the child, it will be adopted. Really? Then why are there children in orphages? I asked her how many babies need to be found in garbage cans before she changes her mind on the issue. She doesn't think any will be found - I find that naive! How are the mothers going to support these children? This is an increase of taxes of everybody. I would rather invest $500 now to save myself $3,000 later and we are talking much bigger numbers. What do you think the total cost to the taxpayer of each and every child to feed, educate, house, medicate, etc?
I still say that there is NO national health care system in the U.S. so how dare someone tell me what I am going to do with my body. If men were the ones who got pregnant, there would be drive-thru abortion clinics. I keep trying to convince my friend that life does not begin at conception because if the mother dies after 1 week or 2 weeks the fetus dies too. It is not a life, if it was it would be able to sustain itself. If the religious sector says that the cells are alive and growing then next time they are diagnosed with cancer, then let it continue to develop, we have no right to kill the cells.
I told my friend that this is a country of LAWS, not of religious beliefs. If you believe religion should rule, I suggest a move to Iran or maybe in a cave in Tora Bora (or maybe I need the U-Haul). I personally believe that child molesters should be PERMANTELY castrated on first offense - no exceptions - but we have laws. She says that abortion should be outlawed - if Bush believe this then why isn't he putting a constitutional amendment forward? I thought Bush was against the government being forced on people? Oh, but not if you are gay! Presto, another problem - those gays. My friend says that they should have no rights to marry. Isn’t sex outside of marriage a sin? My friend is saying that these "dark" cartoons are teaching children to tolerate this act. What is wrong with tolerance? I have to tolerate those gas guzzling Hummers on the highways increasing America desire for more oil. I have to tolerate that BOOB in the White House for another 4 years. Yes, everyone needs to learn tolerance. She says that gay are engaging in sodomy. My smartass response: define sodomy. She got real angry then. I calmly asked again, define sodomy. She finally yelled that it is sex in the butt. I told her, she better get a dictionary because it isn’t. I told her that her mother and father are probably guilty of sodomy. She didn’t like that at all. I told her that I am guilty of sodomy - it all depends on what you call "normal". I think she went home and pondered that a while!
I have converted my sister to the truth. I think she voted Republican because her husband did. I might even have him converted too. He was yelling about how Bush was going to screw him big time by privatizing social security. No, he has screwed you lots of ways but you are just starting to see how it effects you. My mother used to be registered Republican but she has converted to the CORRECT side now. The guy, my mom dates, has always voted Republican but I think he is even seeing that we are ALL GETTING SCREWED! (Wonder if this makes Bush guilty of Sodomy - or did Gannon make him guilty of it?) Don’t give up, LisaZ! There are some who are wiping the sleep out of their eyes now!
How to talk to people...
This is one of the best web sites I have found for a intelligent consideration of abortion from both sides of the isle.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm
LisaZ and googa1 you are great for trying. I talked to one woman before the election and she was so confused by her family’s and church’s information because they said Kerry was for gay marriage and thought he thought abortion was a good method of birth control. It was very difficult to talk to her and she had some personal issues with the gay marriage because she felt her grandson was living in sin in a gay relationship. After discussing her concerns I asked her if I could tell her my concerns about Bush, and she said okay. She totally agreed with my concerns (economy, avoiding the Geneva Convention, lying to get us into Iraq) but I'm afraid I only confused this poor woman further, she didn't know what to do with the information.
I believe that the friends you are talking to must be listening to Right Wing radio or TV, or the 700 club's "news". Pat Robertson knows how to put a terrible and stupid spin on the "news", and he provides commentary on most of their "reporting". It's weird to watch it. When an individual is told that the opponent is "stupid", etc. (see Limbaugh) or that one way of thinking is God's way (see Robertson) then it is very threatening to even question that opinion. These people are so brainwashed that they can't change their mind because it would make them stupid and devil worshippers.
How do we counter that? It seems that providing information is the way, but if their psyche perceives counter-information as stupid and devil worship then they will avoid it like the plague. Perhaps we need to tell them it's not stupid, and not devil worship. Perhaps we need to remind them that it is okay to consider all sides of an issue. I don't know.