2004 is over, lets focus on the future.
The 2004 election is over. Nothing can change it. Yes there was fraud but it is over. I am tired of still hearing about Ohio. There should be a full investigation into Ohio of 2004 and Florida of 2000. The problems should be corrected and we should focus on the elections of 2006. Please everyone e-mail or write your representative whether he or she is a Democrat, Republican, or that one Independent and DEMAND election reform. Not neccesarily abolishing the electoral college, but making 100% sure that every vote counts. Represenatives DO read letters and e-mails. I know personally, back during the controversy with Napster my representative responded to my e-mail. And that was about music! MP3s!!! They will take voting reform much more seriously that an e-mail about MP3s from a 15 year old kid (I was 15 during that hugh Napster/Audiogalaxy/Kazaa thing). The only way it can happen is if our Congress men and women have full support of the people.
I once had a counselor tell me
that refusing to confront problems by not talking about them only makes the situation worse. I'm not sure how we're supposed to impress upon our legislators that we're sick of living in a sham of a democracy by stifling free expression of that.
I do have what I hope is a helpful suggestion for you, though. If you don't want to hear about allegations of vote fraud in the United States, don't read the threads in which it's being discussed.
I care.
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
But it isn't refusing to confront problems.
Invesitgating these two states will be a priority. Nevertheless it is over. There was Fraud in Ohio but there was also fraud in 49 other states to. There is nothing that will happen now that will make John Kerry President. So us Dems have to try our best to unite and propose election reform. Elections have been stolen in the past. Not just the Bush elections. If you think Liberals have never stolen an election you are wrong. There is fraud on both sides, and elections have been stolen by both parties. If the Dems had won Ohio the Republicans would of gone on about fraud and the Dems would of told them to "get over it". It is not a single side story.
For the millionth time
this isn't about John Kerry or George W. Bush. It's about the fact that the United States of America cannot hold a trustworthy election, even as we're sending our children overseas to 'spread democracy' elsewhere.
Don't you get it? People are DYING to promote democracy, and we still don't have it here. (Ok, it's not the first reason we were given for going into Iraq, but it's the one being used now.
Do you know what's really funny? If there is a fear that elections are full of fraud and that both sides steal them, where are the republicans who should be standing with us to get the problem fixed?
It's a laugh riot, isn't it?
Once again: If you're tired of hearing about it, toddle on to another thread it isn't being discussed in.
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
You just don't get it do you?
The Election is over and it will just weaken the Democratic party to complain about Ohio. The United States is NOT a pure Democracy as I have said before. But the problem is not fixed by complaining about. It is corrected by action. And right now you are quite obviously not using the logical part of your brain.
What's your opinion on reform
What's your opinion on reform, Mr. Fantastic?
Reform
The reform is where every vote counts and every vote is counted. Paper trails left by electronic voting machines to ensure there was no tampering. A unified voting rights act where all 50 states and D.C. obide by the same voting laws. A 100% guarantee of 1 voting machine per 100 people per precint in every state with back up machines in case if one breaks down. The amount of back up machines of course cannot be used unless of a machine break down. An election day holiday where no one goes to work and school is closed. This will ensure that people have the time to vote. The perfect idea of reform in my opinion is abolishing the electoral college. Abolition of the electoral will not mean much if people can't vote. So keep it until there is certainity that every one who can vote, will vote, and that vote is counted. It saddens me that you all can not work for the future. Stop complaining about the fraud in Ohio and work to correct the problem.
Oh, dear
yes, I can see how it defended democracy for Senators to keep their mouths shut in 2000. *snicker*
You're officially in my killfile. I'm not very fond of people who claim they're sick of a discussion, only to park themselves in that very discussion and keep it going. IMO, it's disingenuous.
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
Ok Michael try this
Did you know?
1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold
and ES&S.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold
2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html
3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/private_company.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html
4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its
electoral votes to the president next year."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886
5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became
Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031004Fitrakis/031004fitrakis.html
6. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family,
was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics
Committee.
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26
http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php
7. Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm
http://theindependent.com/stories/052700/new_hagel27.html
8. ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts
almost 60% of all U.S. votes.
http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html
9. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes.
In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020evotestates/pfindex.html
10. Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all
of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm
11. Diebold is based in Ohio.
http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm
12. Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers to help
write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml
13. Jeff Dean was Senior Vice-President of General Election Systems when it was
bought by Diebold. Even though he had been convicted of 23 counts of felony theft
in the first degree, Jeff Dean was retained as a consultant by Diebold and was largely responsible for programming the optical scanning software now used in most of the United States.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf
14. Diebold consultant Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.
http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf
15. None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls
in Ohio.
http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/10/26/loc_elexoh.html
16. California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was
so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a
chimpanzee was able to do it! See the movie here:
http://blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov.
http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190
17. 30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen
voting machines with no paper trail.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml
18. All -- not some -- but all the voting machine errors detected and reported
in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html
http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeResearchStudiesBush...
t.htm
http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html
http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&...
950
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm
19. The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7628725.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10544-2004Oct29.html
20. Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush --
have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further
investigation.
http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeResearchStudiesBush...
t.htm
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/policy/story/0,...
1,97614,00.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/tens_of_thousands.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/110904.html
http://uscountvotes.org/
First we need to get informed, then organized and then take action.
Proud member of the reality based community
Which is exactly why we need
Which is exactly why we need this reform. I have spoken out against Florida of 2000 and the fraud in Ohio. We are all already informed about it. Now is the time to take action. We are still only 2 months past an election while it is fresh on people's minds. Another reason why NOW is the time to do it. Apparently I touched on serveral of those topics in my idea's of reform :). You can copy and paste better that that.
The most important right we h
The most important right we have is to elect our leaders. To say that
2004 is over & move on & get over it, is such bull. We need to keep
this alive so that we can get election reform, that we can hold those
in power accountable, and then when there is fraud, prosecute these
self-righteous vote pimps to the fullest extent of the law.
I listened to one self-righteous Republicon, David Drier, saying that "no election is perfect". I wanted to throw up, if any place it should be perfect or near perfect here in the US. Why aren't they standing with us to support election reform, IF it is as they claim Democrats are also guilty of fraud??? Before we spread democracy into other countries and spill the blood of our young for democracy or in this case oil, we need to get it right here. If you don't like the threads about the 2004 election, don't read 'em. The reason the Republicans don't want election reform is that the only way they can obviously be assured of a win is to cheat.
Michael, could you please giv
Michael, could you please give us just one reason why we should listen to anymore of your pontificating on what we, as Progressive Democrats, should or should not do?
You appear to be either a middle-of-the-road DLC-er, or just a troll looking to disrupt. And before you flame me with any of that "refuse to listen to a different opinion" crap, we have listened, responded, and refuted your opinions.
If you had the broadness of mind to look around, you would see that we are not single-minded about election reform -- we are actively working on many other issues. Issues such as priorities for rebuiling the Democratic Party so that we liberals again have a voice. Issues such as pointing out the lies, and the fraud of the Republican party.
You are obviously young and have much to learn, and for some reason, you sound very familiar. I suspect that you may have been booted from this site under a different name, and have come back to prove your intellectual superiority. We ain't buyin' it.
I am definetly more middle of the Road
I am certainly a middle of the road guy, which is why it is important to listen to people like me. Because it is the middle of the road people who make and break elections. I have just discovered this site and apparently it isn't right for me. After all I am looking for an intelligent site with intelligent conversations. It appears I have not found that site yet.
The Problem
Is that many of us here are tired of centrists telling us what we need to do to be able to win an election. Many people here are intelligent and often hold intelligent conversations. I for do not believe that we have to rely on centrists to win. If that was true than the republicans would also be trying to appeal to centrists, and they obviously are NOT. If you have only come here to tell us what we are doing wrong and how we need to change, than you are at the wrong site and will not find a warm welcome here. If you truly want open and honest debate on a variety of topics than you are welcome to stay. It's your choice.
Mike, for agreement with your thesis...
go back to FreeRepublic and you will find all sorts of people to agree with you.
Three elections lost because of the stance taken by the DLCers(dems who will not fight). Three! And you want us to lie down in front of the steam roller and agree with them?
You are both a troll AND a disrupter.