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For Those Who Say Kucinich Can't Win
I am a veteran of 22 years in the USAF, the step father of an active duty soldier who has already served one tour in the war zone, a labor activist and officer in my local, an anti war activist and organizer.
I am tired of hearing people tell me that they believe in the Kucinich platform - immediate end to the occupation of Iraq; a single payer not for profit health CARE system; withdrawing from NAFTA and CAFTA and other free trade job exporting agreements; foreign policy based on diplomacy not military agression, and restoring constitutional rights to Americans. These people also say they want a candidate who is not owed by corporate campaign contributors. Well Dennis Kucinich is this candidate.
The people tell me they read in the press and hear the T.V. talking heads say Kucinich is not a viable candidate. I say it's time to stop listening to the media and to vote your conscious. I have been voting for the lesser of two evils or any one but the republican for years, this year I am voting for a man of principal, a man who can't be bought, and a man who will lead America down a new path of peace, diplomacy, and taking care of the needs of our people.
As Kucinich says "If you want peace, vote for peace" when talking about the other democratic candidates who have voted to extend the occupation of Iraq into 2009. It is that simple, don't worry about what the media says, VOTE FOR PEACE. If all who believe in Peace vote for Peace, then January 2009 will see President Kucinich in the White House.
When I cast my vote in the Nevada Caucaus, the primary, and the general election, I won't feel dirty and I won't be complaining by April of 2009 that I have been sold out again as a working class person.
Kucinich can and will win when people quit buying into the media twists and turns.
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Aganist the War
SEIU Local 1107
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I wholeheartedly agree with you...
First, I want to thank you for your service to this great country...second of all, I want to express my deepest gratitude for your honest contribution, via this post, to the advancement and protection of this Democratic Republic.
I was a proud Kucinich supporter in 04' and am even more proud to support him this year.
"As a Christian, I believe that Separation of Church and State is Vital, not only for the People's Protection from an overzealous Theocratic Regime, but also for the protection of Religion from suppression."
Electability???
This is one of the largest Karl Rove, right wing Orwellian media myths. You don't see the Republicans falling for this.
Democrats argue who can win primaries. Republicans argue who can win elections.
It's true Hillary & Obama can score well in the primaries. But the best studies suggest that they are the ONLY two candidates who cannot win the general election.
That's right. Ponder on that a moment - there are many people out there who WILL NOT vote for Hillary (because of Bill, because she's a woman, because she's seen as a flip-flopper, etc) and many who will not vote for Obama (because he's a young black man, because of his history with drugs, because he's inexperienced, etc).
Read the reports on Know Your Democrats.com for a full analysis. Almost ALL other candidates, especially Kucinich, will win against ANY unnamed Republican.
In fact, Kucinich would do better than most, because we wouldn't lose 3-5% of the vote to Nader or some other Green/independent candiate.
Arguing who will win the primaries is a circular argument. I say support Dennis, don't compromise.
One more thought - earlier in this century, progressives learned from people like Martin King Jr, JFK, Gandhi, that our values are important enough to die for. Now, we won't even lose an election for our values. I say, don't compromise our values, and DON'T support a candidate who does, either. Look at the example in '00 and '04 - many of us compromised our values to vote for moderates. Then (in both cases) the moderate candidate won, but wouldn't stand up for himself OR for the disenfranchised voters. You can never win if you compromise your values - even if you win, you lose.
Well Mad Max...let me spell it out for you...
You picked up on an OLD thread that was produced by a guy who had a group of Kucinich Brown Shirts organized over at Dennis's own official web site.
This group of brownshirts hit all the Dem sites and attempted to outshout everyone. They went so far as to get tossed off many sites for violating the TOS. They did not go quietly into the good night--they attacked members of this site on google...and planned that attack operation on the official Kucinich site.
There are still a few of them at DU, but they do not get much notice. Somewhere in our archives here, they are all named and their activities pointed out to our members who do attempt to go along with our rules.
Dunno about you, but I would object strongly to anyone entering my living room and attempting to shit on the floor. That is what they did.
As a result, we have fewer Kucinich backers than we might have. It seems strange that the Keebler Elf would allow such organizing on his own official site.
Whether Kucinich will get much attention is yet to be seen. He has all the answers, has solutions(at least in his own mind)for almost all problems, but is burdened by his previous strong attitude toward choice where he quickly flip-flopped.
He is not a winning candidate however saying that, he might do a bit better this time than he did the last go around. Al Sharpton beat him for electoral votes last time and Al quit early.
One would think that Kucinich would become a Green where he would have heavy support--as you have pointed out. Course, the Greens take Repugnant money to campaign against Dems so perhaps that would be a negative.
His frantic followers are his worst enemy.
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
For anyone wishing to look more at Dennis Kucinich...
The old site has apparently been archived and/or destroyed.
The new site:
http://action.dennis4president.com
Read the blogs/forums and so on. I noticed that two of the Kucinich Brownshirts are still active:
DavidHP and Anita Stewart
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
Kucinich isn't still going to win.
I Know that dennis has a heart in his place, but he will lose not only in southern states, but he will lose with strong conseratives and centrist.
I'm a centrist and there is zero chance that kucinich is gonna win this one.
Wesley Clark is another solution, cause he's far more stronger.
Yes, we need to bring our soliders home, this Iraq War was illegal, immoral and disgraceful from the start, it should have never happen in the first place, it had no WMD's and it had absolute no connection with 9/11.
Kucinich maybe a peace candidate, but if he thinks he can battle conseratives and centrists he'd better think again.
When you brag about being a
When you brag about being a "centrist," I wonder if you really know what a "centrist" is. Members of the Democratic "Leadership" Council (DLC) call themselves New Democrat "centrists," but they are really neoconservative Republican enablers. They have collectively voted with the Dubya neocons all almost all issues which are important to real Liberal Democrats. I refer to Lieberman, Hillary, Biden, Bayh, Landrieu, Vilsack, Warner, the Nelsons, et al.
In case you believe that Liberalism is a dirty word (as do the DLC and the neocons), then you obviously don't know the meaning of that word either, and have been taken in by the neocon "far left" definition. American Liberals ARE the true moderates of the political arena in the United States. They are Middle Americans who are socially Liberal and fiscally Conservative. This country was founded on Liberal principles, and they embody the very spirit of what it means to be an American.
Your support of the NRA and the "eye-for-an-eye" method of dealing with our social problems tends to put you in the neocon camp as well. Have you ever considered that if we had less (and more well-regulated use of) guns, we would have fewer people facing the death penalty? Promoters of the 2nd Amendment should really read the entire sentence which deals with a "well regulated militia." and not just the part about the "right to bear arms."
I believe that you should re-evaluate your self-definition as a "centrist," and be honest with yourself as to your real political leanings. As another member often states, "the only thing you find in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe, and dead skunks."
Kucinich and Centrist Libertarians
I don't think that Dennis Kucinich expects the votes of libertarians, conservatives, or centrists since they aren't on the same side of issues like single payer health care for all, immigration rights, and the rights of workers to organize the workplace. Ron Paul is a perfect example, his views on these issues are in direct conflict with Kucinich's and progressive thinking democrats.
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Against the War
SEIU Local 1107
Read the studies...
Kucinich reflects mainstream values better than any other candidate.
Look at his scorecard on www.Know Your Democrats.com - on the top 8 issues (Iraq war, immigration, healthy care, reproductive rights, etc), Kucinich agrees with the mainstream 7 of 8 times. More than any other candidate. The only issue he stands against the mainstream is marriage equality, which I also support.
Obama is with the mainstream only 2 of 6 times (he wasn't around to vote on the other issues). Hillary is only with the mainstream 1 of 8 times.
Also, Kucinich is the only candidate who got 100% A+ from the Sierra Club, ACLU, & Human Rights Campaign. Hillary & Obama got Bs & Cs. Edwards got D's and F's.
For me, "centrist" & "moderate" are another way to say flip-flopper.
It just doesn't make sense - if Hillary, Obama, & Edwards are more "centrists" than Kucinich, why don't they represent mainstream values? Most people want out of Iraq, but those 3 say stay the course. Most people oppose domestic spying & torture, but those 3 support it. So is "centrist" a nice way to say they cave in to the extreme right wing?
Read sociologist Paul Ray - whose studies show that the highest percent of Americans are radically progressive (he calls them cultural creatives) - they are non-violent, oppose the war, oppose torture, oppose spying, support the environment, support full equality & full legal rights for all citizens (regardless of age, sex, orientation, etc).... this is nearly 40% of Americans. They're not the silent majority - they are outspoken, but under-reported by the mainstream media.
No matter who the Democrats put forward, they're going to be accused of being a leftist nut. It doesn't matter who they are. So why not put out the most progressive guy we've got?
Kucinich supports my veiws
I know the media in this country would love to make us all feel there's no chance of Dennis to win,but I have learned NOT to believe most of what neo-owned,or scared main media has to say.It's time we all vote what our hearts tell us is right,and I know Dennis Kucinich is the right person for me and my beliefs,and is the ONE to make this country a place I'd be proud to again be a part of.
According to a post over at DU...
Dennis managed to garner $344,000 in the first quarter of this year--average contribution was $71.
Hmmm...he seems to be running a bit behind the others.
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
Contributions
Could be because he refuses to take money from corporate sponsors who expect something in return. No business as usual with Kucinich, he will work for the the people not to the corporations. I hear many believe the campaign finiancing situation needs to be changed (unless it is done by a candidate they support.)
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Against the War
SEIU Local 1107
Question is: Could somebody
Question is: Could somebody win an election in this country without selling out to the corporations? I applaud Kucinich for not selling out.
I wish that everyone had access to a computer in their homes so they could see and hear what he has to say. I just caught this video and he speaks truth to power.
Give a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d_EfHtPZ20
I Believe People Power Can Win
Maybe I am a hopeless idealist, but I do believe that people power can beat the almighty dollar. But it takes alot of work on the part of the supporters of Kucinich, we need to get his message out so people can hear it since we can't compete with the money the other candidates have. This is what grassroots is all about, let's see if what we were all taught as children about anyone can be president is the truth or is it just another loss to the military-industrial corporate complex.
I see the buying of elections with corporate donated funds as a major problem. It is the reason why necessary radical change from the status quo does not happen in this country. Dennis Kucinich has made a political statement by refusing corporate sponsors. This makes our work as local precinct leaders vital if we really want the change as seen in the Kucinich vision.
I am not going to give up because the top three candidates per the corporate media, Clinton, Edwards, and Obama, have bigger war chests from corporate sponsors. Stating the obvious like "If you want peace, vote for peace" is a powerful but simple message that the other candidates can't claim because they have all either voted to go to war or to fund the war.
When the rest of the democrats stand up for the people by supporting a single payer health care system instead subsidizing health insurance companies, by voting to cut off funding for the occupation instead of voting to continue it until the end of Bush's term, and to withdraw from NAFTA and CAFTA which lost thousands of jobs for working class Americans, then America will be the country it should be.
If the dollar wins out again over what is good for the people, then that is continuing a sad state of affairs for this country.
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Against the War
SEIU Local 1107
I have checked the facts
Kucinich saved the public utilities from going to the private sector in Cleveland when he was mayor, it wasn't appreciated at the time, but later it was. As for comparing the single payer health care system with Cuba, there are many more accurate comparisions - the UK, Canada and most the industrialized Western European counties have similar systems. I have worked in unions jobs also and don't find unions to be run by criminals as you state. Negotiations in my union are done by a large group of the workers with a couple of the staff. Unions protect workers from a deck stacked against them with Right to Work (for less) laws, constant harassment by a republican labor dept and unholy alliances of business owners who want to keep workers down. For those on the bottom to middle rungs of the economic scale in this country there is no competition in marketplace as those with all the money control the market place in America. I hear the same old tired anti union arguments and red baiting worthy of Joe McCarthy, but not real facts or truth. Which democrat does a libertarian support as that would say much about that candidate?
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Against the War
SEIU Local 1107
YES, Can DO, but NOT from a can!
So NICE to see this here! :-)
'Twas DINOS and Dinosaurs and such among Dems who started that "Dennis can't get elected" meme, so afraid of his viability and vitality and the way it would so CHANGE everything, wresting from their feigned control, "The Party", "forever". If he couldn't get elected, how then is it that he keeps getting RE-elected?---and most recently, with what is usually called "a landslide", taking 2/3 of the vote!
There are those who push up the straw-man scarecrow of claiming he has not done anything about the vote theft, intimidation and disenfranchisement in Ohio, and never seeming to comprehend (perhaps they came up without a civics class?) that this is not actually in the purview, per se, of a US Representative, to "do something", particularly, about it. What he CAN do, he has done, and continues to do, ie.: work on and support legislation to counteract it.
YES, I believe that WE can win WITH a candidate, without "BigBucks"; even running alongside others stuffed with those "BigBucks". It is on a different plane, so to speak, when one is supporting a candidate in whom Principle is a first cause guiding and informing all motivations. It is a whole new category when a candidate truly works for the "common good" and the "good of the commons", seeking ever those "win/win" resolutions. It is a totally different story when "winning" does not need to be "beating" others. ALL, for instance, will "win" when we have single payer Universal Health Care, and they will, whether they like it or not! ;-)
Though neocons and their shadow-Dems seem to THINK they can only "win" by everyone else losing enough to be kept as peons holding up their hollow pyramid, keeping the neo's on its upper levels, they would all then just start fighting over who's to be king of the pinnacle. Even more though, their vision is a self-cannibalistic one, for the middle class they would destroy, sending them down into the peon regions to hold up the greater-neo glory, would bring them down with it, for, who would then buy enough stuff to keep them in profit-land??? If they finish eating up the middle class, their own "body politic", what then? Is that "winning", or is it actually a greater losing?
There are OTHER ways than money to get along. When one KNOWS that one is working for the election of someone incorruptible, as well as for all the good one KNOWS in oneself, and also KNOWS to be the same deeper meaning of "Good" in that candidate, no one needs to prod or pay that person to get out there and promote that Good for all its worth! One doesn't need to wait upon this or that to be sent to them by any central committee, but instead gets busy creating and contributing of one's own accord and initiative.....
In the 2004 campaign, there was a group of musicians who rocked some really good original tunes for Kucinich. (Whooolicious Delicious, or something in more syllables similar...) Had we got that music up and out there, folks could well have been rockin' and rollin' him all the way in, on home to the WhiteHouse. Well, it could contribute a considerable amount, and should get up and out in the airwaves and cyberwaves as soon as possible. There was a rap-style one that was PARTICULARLY good, and I don't even LIKE rap! I don't know yet how to send a music file, but have a couple good ones from then in my computer files, one where Dennis rapped in, c lowning it up a bit too.
CD's can be made quite cheaply these days, folks can make them at home on computer, adding to the total. A good CD of some speeches with fervor like "A Prayer For America", interspersed with music, some humor, vision, taking care to make an interesting and enjoyable enough production of it for people to wish to listen to again, and again, would do bookoodles, would bring in EXCITEMENT, would get people talking about it all, would see them sharing the CD with others, just to be sharing it! Some of those would start making copies for their friends..... It could be set up for downloading...... (--and, for that matter, DVD's are quite download-able 'now days' too, and home computer reproduce-able)
During the 2004 campaign we ran into so many with the "who??!??" type responses, people having no reference point from which to understand "what" Dennis is; unable to believe in someone who could actually BE walking what he talked that way. Even those who had heard enough to choose to go there, or had seen him speak, but still didn't comprehend enough of it to be able to tell others, much less speak from their own hearts of the Vision of Reality that COULD be, if we but LET IT BE, by OURSELVES being the ones we have been waiting for!
A friend and I made some "books", 3 of them, their content chosen for its ability to be sure that folks then could "see it for themselves". We made a number of copies and handed them out to those with enough interest that they would like to help others to gain that interest. No ploys. No manipulated machinations. All just straight up, out front, DENNIS, or what Dennis's "version" IS and DOES and would BE, that it truly IS, "OUR" version. We also contributed a few to some waiting rooms. The text and title/cover pages for those are still in my computer files, and print out best through WordPerfect. (I really squeezed that stuff IN there, to get as much into as few pages as possible!) I would gladly send those files to anyone interested in reproducing them in updated versions..........
When a friend/fellow Kucinich supporter (in Australia!) sent me the Kucinich photo with that great 2008 logo, as it was held by a preciously smiling little girl, I thought of my "circle of everyone included" (8X8) B&W ring of people, lifted from a more colorful and symbolic graphic design I had done years ago, scanned it in, sharpened up the pixels, then, voila!: http://www.democrats.com/node/12472
I believe this would be a good one to go around all over! I will, hopefully, quite soon, get to spend enough time to make a hi-res computer file version of the ring of 64 people that would then be ready for sending to anyone who would do the same sort of thing with it, with Dennis in the middle, printable. Meantime, there is that one, in lo-res; right click on it and copy it! THIS is truly, "grassroots"!
Surely there are others who did such things, and who are contemplating doing such things now, so, folks, bring it on out here, and lets share it around among us, get it spreading out 'til it is happening then, all around and through us!
(-:G
Make War Obsolete
I am having a problem
I am having a problem getting to that link. It says "page not found".
Well, Goodness,
.......it was there earlier today, and since April 9. I checked it, to make sure it was still posted there, before putting in that link. I just tried it out too, and it didn't go, but then went back to the copy from which I had copy/pasted it, and it clicked right over......... (?????)
So, here's a paste that I have just used, that went right to it.....
(Unless there is any funny business, or glitch monster hiding out under the code.... :-)
http://www.democrats.com/node/12472
(-:G
Make War Obsolete
I was able to see it last
I was able to see it last night. Very nice. Thank you.
Kucinich....
I remember when I helped out on the 2004 Kucinich campaign & when handing out flyers I'd hear the same reply "Kucinich in not electable" or "Kucinich is unelectable" etc.
What was weird is that the sentences coming out of the peoples' mouths were so damn similar it was like talking to Stepford wives. I should have written down their exact sentences each day so I could compare what people were saying each day. I believe they were mimincking what was coming through their media. It was actually spooky to hear the same sentence over & over & over. Their comments were stated in such a way that you knew that not all the people could have thought up the same sentence in the same similar way. I know all of us are being brainwashed at some level from birth to grave, like it or not. I knew the media helped brainwash people but I am telling you just that experience reiterated it for me even more. I still watch tons of tv & I know somehow I am being brainwashed. Just be aware of it so it will affect you less.
Also, am I hearing right?
I know you guys probably have to do editing on some blogs/forums. I don't know your rules. So it's understandable to some extent. But when I heard that you may have messed with your Democrats.com Presidential poll.....I thought of Bush's"editing procedures". Are you practicing Bush's tactics? Please tell me I am wrong & that I misheard. A poll is FACT. There is no opinion involved.
It is similar to taking a vote. A simple procedure to see what people are thinking out there. It is actually a vote. I know other organizations out there are always messing with their polls. It's a given. But you guys too?
Editing is opinion. But when you start editing polls, which are similar to Votes, then why don't we all just put our hands out & take our bar of soap & walk to the bath houses?
Please tell me I am hearing wrong about you guys messing with your polls.
I thought you were a good group. I am also aware that good groups can sloooowly be taken over by infiltrators without them even realizing it. Has that occurred?
Again editing a blog/forum is one thing. But "editing" a poll is flat out wrong. I hope you guys aren't ballot counters in real elections.
From what I hear you may delete my email. I'll check back later.
If I am wrong & did mishear about this, then I apologize for my rudeness.
Thank you.
Would you care to cite a
Would you care to cite a source for your accusation that Democrats.com is "messing with its polls?"
The polls on Democrats.com are not scientific, not open to the general public, and only represent the opinions of our members. Why would we "mess with them?"
Your apology is accepted.
I saw posts on Kucinich
I saw posts on Kucinich website.
http://kucinich.us/node/4316
I know all forums/blogs are general public so it's difficult to prevent
wrongful posts. But please just confirm that you guys are posting correct pollings.
I trust literaly no one at this point. I have seen good groups turn bad.
Again, if I am mistaken I apologize. But just keep an eye out for newcomers to your group. I'm sure you probably do.
Thank you so much
for that response. It answered a lot of questions I had. Welcome to the site.
Here...let me make that link hot for you.
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.
Thank you, Julie.
Yes, Lootie, it does answer a lot a questions.
And it certainly points out who is who.
Kind of reminds you of the
Kind of reminds you of the Freepers from FR, and their tactics doesn't it...?
Yep!
It sure does, Bill.
Just to set the record
Just to set the record straight, the only person who could possibly monkey around with the polls is the owner of this site, or his admins (at his direction). Anyone who believes that Bob Fertik is capable of any underhanded tactics, is either a plant from Free Republic, or a fringe wacko.
For Kucinich to allow members of the forums on his official website to wrongfully slander another Democratic website may be indicitive of his leadership skills. No? The "newcomers" that you are speaking of, are the ones who are making these false accusations for reasons known only to themselves.
As for the unfounded accusation that Dennis Kucinich supporters are being discriminated against on Democrats.com, there are at least seven nodes currently devoted to Kucinich -- twice as many as any other single candidate. The comments that were removed were off-topic spam posts in forums that had nothing to do with the primary election, or candidates in general.
Thank you for your reply
Thank you for your reply above.
And as for others.....I too am now figuring out who is who:)
Thank you so much for you posts.
Just for the record. Would you please just confirm straight out that the polls were not messed with. I am not worried about edited posts. I am worried about "edited" polls.
Just please humor me & state that the polls were not messed with & then I will leave your site.
And as far as labeling me. I guess I'd be the fringe wacko. I am not affiliated with any organization at all. I was helping Kucinich in 2004. I have not helped so far this time around except a donation. But I should be helping the guy. He is the closest to truth we have as far as saving this unraveling country.
And I agree with you. You have many, many posts on him. That is why I was surprised to hear the poll may have been messed with. That is why I just want a flat out confirmation that the poll was not messed with. Your reply insinuates that the poll was not messed with. But it would be helpful to me to just hear it straight out.
Truly, I'd appreciate it.
I can absolutely assure you
I can absolutely assure you that the polls on Democrats.com have NOT been manipulated by anyone connected with this site in any way, shape, or form. They accurately reflect the votes of our registered members. Accusations to the contrary are unfounded, and are coming from a relatively small number of overly-zealous posters from a single group.
We have enjoyed a huge increase in membership over the past few weeks, and the poll results change on a daily basis, as these new members vote for the candidates of their choice. On the other hand, if you are not familiar with the term "freeping," it refers to a practice originated by the neocon members of Free Republic, who will instigate a mass response to online polls in order to tilt them. If there is any of that sort of thing going on with our polls, I am not aware of it.
I apologize if you got the impression that I was trying to label you, and let me assure you that I was not. You are most welcome here, and I hope that you will stick around and participate.
Thanx for the reply. And
Thanx for the reply.
And thanx for explaining freeping.
And thanx for having petition to impeach.
Many organizations call me to help donate for their cause. And I coudn't handle all the calls nor could I keep contributing to all the calls. Years ago the calls were few & now the calls just keep coming. So one day I thought about it & realized I just don't have a lot of money to give to all of them. And as I thought about it more & more I noticed that all the calls were in regards to defending something Bush et al were doing. I needed to streamline how to hanfle all those calls. I realized there are sooo many groups out there fighting against things Bush passed or was going to pass.
So then I came up with the analogy that here we are on this sinking ship & there are holes all over it. We keep patching up the holes....in all these various groups. One group is patching one hole & another group is patching another hole. And the holes just keep coming. Then I realized, while we are continuosly patching holes on one side of the ship or other, we have Cheney on the other side of the ship poking more holes into the ship.
I realized I kept giving money to organiztions who kept patching holes on one side while these same nuts kept poking holes on the other side. I just could not afford that anymore (donationwise & energywise). So I realized these groups had to get together & go straight for the guys poking the holes or we are going to keep running circles around them for the rest of our lives. I used to sign environmetal petitions to Bush & then realized what a waste of tiem. I used to flow a bit of money their way too. But I realized that was a waste of time. I still do contribute a bit to these other organizations but in small bits only. I cannot afford to give to all of them.
Anyway, my point is that I am thankful that you guys are pushing for impeachment because this is not a waste of time at all. Even if impeachment does not occur during their "reich", the hearings are crucial to have the public see for themselves how nuts these guys are. Then those supporting these nuts will slowly step away from themand stop flowing them energy.
So much to cover & so much to enfold. From lies to going to war, to wiretapping, to environment, to Katrina, to 9-11 to you name it....the list goes on & on.
We have no choice but to impeach them. It would be great to impeach them fast.
Or slow may be better. Or just to have impeachment hearings without impeaching.
Any of these scenarios is not a waste of time at all.
So many groups are fighting against Bush et al. What should happen is a massive movement to get all these groups focused on impeaching...because all of them
have one thing in common, the common enemy is Bush et al. Stop patching their holes & go after the ones poking the holes.
I kow I'm repeating myself but that's how I write.
Anyway....
I am glad you guys are around. To put it in a nutshell.
Polls here are not scientific polls...the results are forever...
changing as new members come on the site and cast their votes. When large groups enter and vote as a block, the the results show that. There is no way for anyone, save the owner and techs, to change the results--and they do not do that. These polls are generally up for an extended period which over time results in showing a general trend. The results are not affected by a sudden 'surge' of voters for any particular candidate.
The previous poll which showed numbers of votes cast and the percentages was a bit more descriptive than this form. When Dennis first threw his hat into the ring this time, we had a flood of Kucinich backers who flooded the poll with their collective votes. The results were skewed by their action. Over time however, the massive vote for Dennis was negated as others, backing their own candidates, brought the results back into line with professional scientific polls.
This poll is for this site only, has no standing with a general population, and reflects who is here as a member. As Bill explained, this poll can be temporarily skewed in favor of one candidate or another, but over time, the numbers tend to normalize.
Always compare the standings of candidates in our poll to those of the national polls. Sometimes, for reasons explained above, our figures are different and usually, over time, produce numbers that correspond to the larger polls.
Our polls therefore, are just an indicator of what our members think and feel about all candidates. One cannot take our numbers or standings to the bank.
My own preference would be to show the actual number of votes cast for each candidate--only in that way can you see what is going on.
Groups who come here 'en masse,' generally are disatisfied with the results since they do tend to normalize despite their efforts to skew the works. This is what forces them to accuse the site of tampering with the polls. Please note that everyone can only vote once.
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
Who needs moderators to skew the results
when there are entire groups to do that? And who should know better about how that works than a group involved in it?
http://kucinich.us/node/4248
Edwards has gotten all his people over there. We need to get the Kucinich people over there to vote. Edwards brought us the war.
Indeed...
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.
Lootie, the " misinformation" ( nice term for it) over there
is incredible.
http://kucinich.us/node/4316#comment-7787
At least this guy got it right.
They're entitled to their opinions
and they're human beings like the rest of us, so they can - and apparently are - as wrong as they can be. What I do care about is that at the bottom of the page those two threads are posted on it says that the site is paid for by Kucinich for 2008. The fact that the vitriol remains makes me believe that Kucinich doesn't want my support. If he did, HIS website would not be attacking me.
This is something Kucinich supporters need to think about when they go around attempting to convince everyone around them that K is the ONLY choice because he's the ONLY one who is pure. If you adopt freep mentality (meaning to come as a group and disrupt a website/attempt to change the perception of what the majority thinks by skewing polls or posting 'my candidate is the greatest' spam as far as the eye can see) you lose credibility. When you attack moderators from another democratic website on a site paid for by YOUR candidate and the attacks remain, you've pretty much shot your candidate in the foot.
I mean, I don't even have a favorite. I'll support whoever the nominee is, even if he/she would have been my LAST choice. This little internet outburst by a group of K supporters has pretty much left an indelible mark on me, so far as K support goes. They're not doing him any favors.
Finally, if the K supporters on this site are going to support the democratic nominee regardless of who he/she is, WELCOME TO THE SITE!!! If you're here to freep and if you're going to turn green if K isn't nominated, allow ME to show you the door.
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.
If You Don't Delete this I will Respond
I have had two posts deleted in this thread when I responded to questions posted asking what Kucinich has done in the House. I have never challenged the poll, as I understand it is a poll of people on this site. What concerns me is that it appears posts are deleted too often on this site, the period leading up to the primaries should be a time for debating the issues, but it appears this site is about the party is always right. I have been a democrat since I was 18 and that is 36 years, if you don't believe I have a right to speak my mind about the democrat party then the party is lost already. Is "my party right or wrong" replacing "America love it or leave it" like I heard all the war supporters saying in the 60’s? The party leadership just voted for appropriations to fund the war until 2009, I have one question for those of you who think challenging this is wrong. Do you have children in the military and are you willing to sacrifice them on a failed Bush foreign policy because the party leadership refuses to end the war by cutting off funding. This is a valid question for people to think about. I do have a step son on active duty and I have been trying for four years to end this war, but the funding continues; only Kucinich and a handful of other democrats are trying to end it. I am not willing to sacrifice my step son or any other parent's children for this war. I will never vote for a candidate willing to continue the war regardless of the party period. So ban me for speaking my mind and show how open the party is to listening to other voices.
Dave Peter
Core Kucinich Nevada
Veterans for Peace
Las Vegas Out of Iraq Coalition
Nevada Workers Against the War
SEIU Local 1107
Whatever, David
The impression you have left on me thus far would preclude that I would not listen with great sensitivity to whatever it is you have to say. When you apologize about the totally tasteless and off-the-mark posts about us made on a site paid for by Kucinich for President...when you even stop to realize that sometimes, posts SHOULD be removed, then I will listen to you when it comes to reasoning out when posts SHOULDN'T be removed.
This thread isn't ABOUT moderators on this site and to be quite frank with you, I think it's about time someone discussed moderators at KUCINICH'S site, because I gotta tell ya, that ship has NO captain and that doesn't leave a good impression, especially with Kucinich's name is proudly plastered on the side of that rudderless ship.
If you want strife, might I suggest that you heap it upon the heads of the OPPOSITION? Now, get back on topic, please. You don't see any of us going over to your house and pooping all over the place and then wailing at the wall about the mess left behind, do you? Start telling us all about Kucinich and how wonderful he is, and please stop attempting to discuss something that it is VERY apparent that none of you know anything about.
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.
The Kucinich Conspirators from the official Kucinich site...
http://kucinich.us/node/4316
have shown what they are. They may as well live in Fresno--the home of freerepublic.com who act pretty much as this bunch have done here at dems.com.
Here are the stars of their show as noted from the official Kucinich website:
David H Peter(DavidHP)
liberal democrat
stevefromva
christiandave
v
AnitaStewart
Alex
All of these folks have something negative to say about certain members here, about the site, about what they will do on the net to defame this site and much more. As Lootie points out, there is a need for 'mods' at the official Kucinich site.
For those who don't understand the rules here on this site:
http://www.democrats.com/rules
Had they read these before setting their fingers in motion, perhaps their efforts could have helped Kucinich--most admittedly a dark horse in this campaign.
Unlike these political children, I have a candidate who probably won't make the run. Thats his choice. It is again time to restate the addage that any Dem running who is successful in the run for the presidency will be so much better for the country than BushCo has been.
I hope that this post has brought everyone up to date on what has been going on here on this site. This Kucinich conspiracy reminds me of the now-famous picture of the guy holding the Moran sign at a demonstration or protest. If the shoe fits folks....
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
What really amuses me, is
What really amuses me, is that those who complain the loudest about "censorship," are usually those who attempt to drown out all other opinions by out-shouting anyone who disagrees. When the out-shouting efforts are coordinated and planned in advance, it becomes even more obtrusive. If that is not the definition of freeping, I am at a loss to place a name on the practice.
There is not one long-standing member of Democrats.com who has not had a few posts deleted at one time or another -- it comes with the territory. The purpose of a moderated forum, is to maintain a degree of civility, and to not let a debate become one-sided due to the sheer force of biased and opinionated zealots.
Of course, calling for directed disruption of Democrats.com, DU, DK, MoveOn, and other Progressive websites, on lesser populated fringe boards is a tactic that has been honed to perfection by the members of Free Republic. It's a shame that those who profess to be Liberal Democrats would stoop to the same divisive tactics.
Many of the members of Democrats.com, including me, are military combat veterans, and using that card as if it somehow excuses ham-fisted behavior doesn't play well either.
Take the Red Pill
In the movie, "The Matrix" Morpheus offers Neo two pills - should he take the red or blue pill? The blue pill will allow him to live in ignorance, which is 'bliss'. If he takes the red pill he will see the truth. We can only hope that Democrats will take the progressive Red Pill and vote for Kucincih. A vote for any Democrat who takes money from corporations is a Blue Pill vote.
What's sad is that we have some good members
here who do support Kuchinich.
These fanatics don't represent them.
They are giving K. supporters a bad name.
What's even sadder is that
What's even sadder is that this site, the owner, the bloggers, the members have done so much work for impeachment. They/we don't deserve to be treated like this.
I am totally turned off to electoral politics due to the fact that it gets so ugly and mean-spirited. It's really sad.
But let's continue on with our work at hand. If people want to dis this site, then they are being divisive to the whole impeachment movement.
Thank you, Zoe.
We do need to continue with the work we have before us.
Your support and kind words are very appreciated.
and thank you. The work that
and thank you. The work that everyone has done here is very much appreciated.
Vote for Kucinich in the Primary
and see what happens. He might catch on.