Impeach Bush & Cheney!
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Impeachment--Not a Priority
As an avid Democrat and someone who has felt nothing but disgust for this administration, I fully understand the desire for impeaching these criminal dictator-wannabes. However, regardless of the argument in favor of impeachment, we are currently standing on some pretty fragile ground, and we cannot afford to waste the opportunity to concentrate our efforts on issues that hold much higher priority. I do not agree that MoveOn should put impeachment on its priority list. There is so much damage that must first be undone, and it will take these next two years (and more) to work that process. I have talked to many people in my circle of friends and acquaintances about this, and NOT ONE of them thinks we should focus on impeachment at a time when we are poised to show that we genuinely have the pressing issues of the people and the planet in their proper place of importance. Impeachment proceedings will take away from the time and energy needed to correct the horrendous wrongs perpetrated by Bush and his cronies. Yes, I wish we could do it all, but I think we must do what is most productive in the long term, and all the people of this country are watching the Democrats like hawks to see if they are what they say they are--only then will we win in '08. We can't afford to look like a revenge machine--we need to rise above the politics. That is a truly noble act and will have the best impact when it's most needed. Please, let's not sabotage our chances for the next presidency by muddling it up with too much focus on the singular tirade of impeachment. Let's support this Democratic congress to concentrate on the issues that affect us ALL so directly.
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DLC turncoats
are going to stand in the way of change so what good is it going to do for us to focus on change? They helped the republicans with their stranglehold over the past six years and they'll help them now. They will show America what it means to hold majority but not have it.
Not only will we be hearing about our lack of ability to lead, but we'll also be hearing about the fact that perhaps the most corrupt president since Nixon wasn't even on our impeachment radar.
There's a price to be paid for failure to force accountability when yours is the majority party. The BA is currently swallowing that bitter pill.
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.
The Elite
Ok here is my problem, if a soldier was to commit treason they would be arrested, tried, and if convicted, since we are at war, they could be to death. If a US citizen was to commit treason they would be arrested, tried and if convicted, since we are at war, put to death, BUT if one of the Elite, G.W.Bush, commits treason they will, upon leaving office, get paid hundreds of thousand dollars for the rest of his life, plus life time secret service to keep him safe and many other benefits. Isn't this a great nation.
I am a Korean war veteran and a VietNam war veteran and this is not what I fought for. It is sad to watch the American people refuse to fight for their rights. I hear the sounds of crying from all those who fought and died to keep our freedoms safe. We send our soldiers to, supposely, fight for freedom for those of another country while we give ours up.
So let's not try to impeach a traitor. Let's show the rest of the world that in the good old USofA if your a soldier or just a regular citzen of this nation and you commit treason you will be made to suffer, but if your a member of the Elite and you commit treason we will reward you. God I hate this country.
Fitzlight please explain
I am a little confused Fitzlight how did you manage to fight in both the Korean war and the Viet Nam war if you were born in 1947?
We here at democrats.com do not hate America, we love our country.
I can understand being discouraged with the current administration. But that is a far cry from hating the United States of America.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
"In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act~George Orwell
He would have been older,
He would have been older, but he got sick when he was young...
Seems to me that 1927 would be about right...
considering that he was too young for WWII and just about right for the draft for Korea.
One doesn't see too many 3 year old draftees still walking the streets.
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
Grinch haven't you heard of
Grinch haven't you heard of child prodigies? Mozart for example ;) They are very early bloomers.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
"In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act~George Orwell
measure twice cut once.
As any good craftsman knows you measure twice then cut once. In many cases you don't get a second chance. Impeachment is not a tool for vengence nor is it an easy fix. If the new congress jumps into immediate impeachment hearings without doing some serious investigations (not like the lame 911 commission)into just exactly what was known and what might have been passed on to Bush then and only then can we decide whether to proceed with impeachment.
If it can be proven that Bush and/or Cheney lied to Congress and the American People then impeachment is a priority. If the President is not held to the highest standards then how can we as a people demand high standards from anyone, especially our polititians?
One must remember that the next two years are preparation for the most important election in any of our lifetimes. What the democratic party does between now and Nov. 2008 will determine what happens in the next presidential election. Overplaying our hand will be just as bad as underplaying it. Bringing charges against the sitting president without getting the job done will be worse than leaving the lame duck alone and letting history be his judge and jury. IMHO this is a "damned if we do and damned if we don't" scenario.
"We need a President that is fluent in at least ONE language."
impeachment an absolute necessity
I've been swimming in investigative journalism for years, and I bet if somebody stacked all the "evidence" it would stand as tall as the WTC. This investigation has been ongoing without the help of congress, so why not proceed? If the president must swear an oath to protect our nation and our constitution against "all enemies foreign and domestic", then it is our patriotic duty as citizens to do the same. The Dems have been accused many times of being soft on security...so are we going to prove it? Do we have the guts to do our duty, or will we simply shiver in fear over losing the majority again? Ask a soldier about fear, then ask yourself if it's worth the risk!
An impeachment effort is absolutely necessary !
Key word is
Evidence. As I stated before, there has to be solid evidence that a crime was committed. Not just accusations. I am not a lawyer but I know enough to know that you do not have a case with out solid evidence. Not hearsay, not rumor and not accusations. The President has to have "knowingly" committed a crime. If we cannot prove that he knew he was giving false statements to Congress then we have no solid case.
It would not be that hard to get articles of impeachmemt given the new makeup of the House, but you better have a very solid case to get two thirds of the Senate to vote to convict. Anything less is exactly what happened in 1999 with the Senate vote on Clinton. A lot of smoke and no fire. If that happens again you are basicly sending a message to the public that the Democratic Congress is just looking for revenge.
I want Bush out of office as much as anyone but I'm not willing to blow my foot off in the process.
"We need a President that is fluent in at least ONE language."
And to follow up on your statement...
There are a number of crimes that can be mentioned and even PROVEN (just follow the white rabbit to a post of mine from not too long ago describing BOOsh's Crimes).
But let me just simplify this for you, the easiest case against BOOsh regards a violation that HE has admitted to committing, and it is spelled out in just three words:
"Domestic Surveillance Program" Enough Said.
"As a Christian, I believe that Separation of Church and State is Vital, not only for the People's Protection from an overzealous Theocratic Regime, but also for the protection of Religion from suppression."
There's more than enough evidence to warrant investigations
As Elizabeth Holtzman shows in her clearly written book "The Impeachment of George W. Bush" (www.impeachbushbook.com)Bush should be impeached for many reasons, but the most open and shut one is his open refusal to obey the FISA laws. The law requires a court order for wiretaps - even 72 hours later is OK. But Bush doesn't like that law so he simply doesn't obey it. He doesn't like Geneva either - once a treaty is signed, the provisions of that treaty - no torture - become U.S. law. Bush doesn't like that either, so it doesn't apply to him. Bush is also Constitutionally required to - get this - "take Care that the Laws are faithfully executed". Well he hasn't done that. He's lied to Congress (and all the rest of us) in the 2003 State of the Union (WMD's, Nigerian uranium) and that's a crime. Bush was in possession of intelligence reports that clearly stated Iraq had no WMD's and the Nigerian documents were blatant forgeries, but this President didn't care, he wanted this war and that's it. So please, we're not children here. There's more than enough cause to start the investigations, and as Holtzman says, once the investigations start who knows where they'll end up. Follow the evidence. My bet is the evidence will lead to impeachment sure as hell, but first things first. If you want to live under a lawful government, you must support the impeachment process that starts with the House Judiciary Committee holding investigations. If we don't support impeachment, we give a green light to future presidents to ignore the Constitution whenever they feel constrained by that silly old document and those dumb old laws. No one likes impeachment, as Holtzman also says. It's not about revenge and it can only work if it's done on a bipartisan basis. But the Constitution is at stake and enough people know it - whether we have the guts enough to care is an open question at this point, but I hope enough Americans stand up and do the right thing on this. Impeach Bush Now.
This isn't a simple court case
we are talking about impeaching POTUS. Elizabeth Holtzman wrote a book. Juat like Limbaugh she was the only one picking the subject matter so there was no one to disagree and no one to point out the flaws in the logic. For instance, in the cases you site, Bush was very careful to cover his own ass by making sure his boy, the US Attorney General, gave him the go ahead on both the wire taps and on the torture, plus on the latter he is just about to sign the latest "torture bill" that will make this discussion mute. As for the yellowcake, Tenent has already taken the fall on that one so once again, Bush covered his ass. As I said before, we have to get SOLID evidence to pull off an impeachment and conviction.
If you look at my earlier posts, especially the one from 11/29 you will note that I am as anxious as anyone to get this liar out of office, but if we move forward with to little evidence we might get the articles of impeachment but no conviction. That would be worse than not going after him at all. I kinda like the other post in this thread that calls for censure. That could work well for us and create less of a stigma than having the Senate acquit.
In summary, we have to do something but rushing into impeachment with less that a complete case is not the something we need to do.
"We need a President that is fluent in at least ONE language."
One thing at a time - let's get the facts i.e. investigate
I hear you, but a couple of quick points. First, yes that's right, Holtzman wrote a book - a book based on reason, experience and the law. She is not the only legal and Constitutional expert calling for impeachment. We all talk about impeachment (distressingly like bringing the troops home now) as if we can just decide to do it - I am 100% guilty of this verbal shorthand. What we are really talking about are investigations. What did the President know, when did he know it, and what did he do with the information in question once he did know it. If this new Congress decides to exercise real Accountability and Oversight, these questions must be asked. Will we force the Congress to do its job? That's a question for us to answer. In terms of Bush's covering his ass, we have to differentiate between political cover and legal cover, and only an investigation by the Judiciary Committee can do that. Impeachment can only happen if the evidence warrants it, so Oversight first, then Investigations, and then we'll see. My bet is that whenever the truth comes out, it will be worse than anyone imagines. But let's ask the questions and get the facts out in the open.
Impeach now, Investigate later.
Hi Cloud,
I'm usually the other way around and I'm still open, but I say Impeach Now. (I do agree however that we are going for conviction not simply impeachment).
It is not clear to me that the constitutional language of "misdemeanor" does not carry with it some measure of pure competence OR prudence. We are forgetting as a Nation that what Bush suggested we do (and soon after did) was INSANITY. No intellectual in the land believed the horse shit.
Further, all of us know that Spain MIGHT nuke us. We also know that their is a chance that by invading Canada we might be able to better than Nations Health Care and save lives. We also know that there is a chance that Tea Kettles with a full flame under them will freeze. We know as well that an invasion of Iraq will be quick, will pay for itself, will have few casualties, and we will be greeted as liberators. At least there is a chance.
NOW: Anyone without ulterior motives know that the odds above are so low that to engage in any of them without extraordinary intel would be insanely reckless. This goes beyond incompetance. It is reckless endangerment of the entire Nation, and in playing with geo political dominoes, the WORLD.
Anywho, even if I can't convince, I would love it if we could all throw the Impeach NOW crowd some ammo. It can't hurt to have American's see constitutional misdemeanors as applying to the reckless endangerment of the World.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Bush did not even have ordinary evidence for his infinite preemptive strike. I worry that too much talk of getting our ducks in a row will reduce this to a discussion of legalities when the heart of this is elsewhere.
Glad to have ya back!
Jim
Agreement mostly, but a quibble
I agree with pretty much everything Daverobinsonworks has written above except for his precise conclusion that the only way to accomplish what needs to be done is through impeachment. It's clear that no matter what happens, any investigation will drag on for months, and the longer it goes on, the more evidence of crime is likely to come to light. But by setting the goal as impeachment, you run the risk of Bush winning merely by running out the clock. By forgoing impeachment, however, and focusing on proving actual crimes in a court of law, you have a better chance of getting an impartial jury, the verdict is less likely to be interepreted as political and the punishments will be tangible. Impeachment can only remove Bush from office and perhaps eliminate his pension. His days are numbered anyway and he has more money that God so his pension is not going to matter that much. The Constitution indeed is at stake. It would be a shame if Bush got off on the technicalities of a) there wasn't enough time to do it right before he was to leave office anyway or b) he left office before the investigation was finished and so the impeachment process forestalled a criminal prosecution under the "double jeopardy" clause.
The only thing that your
The only thing that your argument is missing, is that unless Dubya is impeached, the incoming president can issue a "blanket pardon" (as Ford did with Nixon). If that happens, all of the "evidence" gathered by the various committees becomes moot, and virtually useless.
A pardon can not be granted for offenses committed which lead to impeachment, regardless of whether or not the Senate "convicts." Also, a sitting president can not be brought to court until after he or she leaves office.
Therefore, the real danger of Dubya getting away with his crimes, is by NOT impeaching him. Since impeachment is not a criminal process, the double jeopardy issue does not apply.
One of the so-far unmentioned items concerning ...
impeachment is that the process and conviction stop Bush's retirement check, stop the presidential benefits like a lifetime office(including staff)and related items.
Impeachment, for the crimes that the Bush cabal have committed, is mandatory. The sooner the better.
A mind once expanded can never return to its original dimensions.
Anne Hathaway: 1556-1623
The greatest derangement of the mind is to believe in something because one wishes it to be so.
Louis Pasteur
evidence
cloud dancer...have you seen the "loose change 911" video ? this is a real eyeopener that no mainstream media deals with, nor do any politicians...it's that intense.
loose change
If you haven't seen this, you should. It's about an hour and a half, and points out dozens of scary facts that to me really should be looked into, by investigative journalism if nothing else. if you do a search on loose change on www.youtube.com you can watch it.
Downing Street Memo
There is plenty of proof that Bush knowingly lied. Starting with the Downing Street Memo. Bush could not tell the truth about anything if his own life depended on it, but he does not have to He is a member of the Elite.
It's been a long while since
It's been a long while since I engaged in any blog activity, because I have been doin my homework...if anyone wants to know the reasons why we should impeach Bush and Cheney, just go to the internet and search the words "impeach bush" and you will find and unending wealth of information. Indeed, when fascism comes to America it will come "wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Ladies and gentlemen...it is already here!
Impeachment is our moral obligation, our patriotic duty, and our civic responsibilty, even it our efforts fail. Our only other choice is outright revolt and revolution...and who wants that? Our money is not tight enough to motivate us enough to sacrifice our 401k"s, is it? So, let's impeach to save ourselves from the worst that could happen.
The war in the middle east is a war against OPEC and a war for control over oil. What pricetag in human lives is it worth? We, Americans, should understand that we are the embassadors to the world, for freedom and democracy, not financial tyrrany, military destruction and imperialistic domination. Don't be suckered into believing that a war of conquest is good for America, or anyone. This is a very small planet. We are a world community...no turning back.
What we do to our neighbors will be done to us in return, and the futility of war will go on needlessly forever, not in God's name, or Allah's name, but in our shame!
impeachment of bush
barbara boxer emailed me yesterday and admitted that there is much "factual" evidence to proceed with impeachment, but the problem is following proceedure...first the house must draft the res., then the senate must follow. this has already happened, so lets move on. laws have been broken, investigations and allegations must take place...impeachment is our moral and legal, patriotic obligation...otherwise, this democracy is lost to gansters. ciao!
the "nucular" option
cloud dancer, my heart is with you , but my head is not. our president is indeed illiterate, or faking it really well to appeal to those who are...it is said by many psychologists and linguists, that over 70% of what we communicate is through body language. why is it that i get a creeping chill every time i hear/watch bush/cheney people speak? why is it that every time i listen to the defense of the "official story" i get a knot in my stomach? something is wrong...very wrong!
it was also stated recently that bush is a very "religious" man ( another lie ). just because he is filmed in a church with his head bowed does not prove that. actions speak louder than words. my question is "what religion does he practice, if in fact he claims that Jesus is his favorite 'philosopher'"?
no real christian would ever call the "messiah" a philosopher. that would be sacrilege. christians do not consider their religion a philosophy, but rather the "truth." and ultimately, religion has no place in this discussion anyway. this is not about religion. it is all about money and power...the "empire" if you will. all empires are the same in essence. history reveals that. what kings, generals, and leaders do to build an empire is usually the same...
the administration claims that our military is underfunded and stretched too thin ( lie ). the congress has approved unbelievable sums of money for this war effort, and where are the 500,000 troops that papa bush sent into iraq in the "desert storm" op? were they all discharged? maybe they are all dispersed around the world in the over 180 u.s. miltary bases around the world, and the bush team never thought about "redeployment." maybe going in with only a handful was part of their "chaos" strategy of not winning a war, but simply creating fear, chaos, death and destruction...and massive war profiteering for all the good ol'boys...maybe it's all about the philosophy of "perpetual war," that this is somehow good for america. do you believe it?
i don't have a list of all the impeachable offenses by our president in front of me right now, but if you want one, i'm sure that randy rhoades would love to send it to you, or noam chomsky, or gore vidal, or a long list of others.
give me one good reason why we should leave bush alone to preside over our nation? is bush the "ideal" that our nation offers the world? is our nation the ideal that you believe in?
peace and impeachment, m.
What About Censure????
Is this possible and preferable to impeachment? I do believe that impeachment or some kind of investigation of the Bush administration is warranted and would be helpful to governance, the party and the country.
The problem I have with impeachment is that the Senate will not convict with necessary 2/3rd's majority. And does it matter that impeachment is doomed in the Senate? or we should go ahead anyway....?? The other problem is practical mechanics too: Do Cheney AND Bush get impeached simultaneously??
I don't necessarily believe the DLC baloney about "a great opportunity" for the Dem party to get things done in this Congressional session. The federal budget is a disaster; the difficult wars in Iraq and Afghanistan WILL HAVE TO BE addressed even if the DLC and other Dems don't want to. And whatever the Dem Congress produces Bush can veto it.
monica lewinsky is censure
what bush is being accused of is treason, not infidelity. shall we censure a wannabe dictator, or shall we remove him from office? what the dems a afraid of is not whether there is enough evidence to impeach and/or imprison bush/cheney. what they afraid of is the people that support bush...the right wing, neocon, federalist society, fascists. i say what fear is justified if you have the "we the people" on your side? the popular sentiment is that the bush team is wrong...let's prove how wrong...no apologies, no mercy!
let's redefine what we as americans really believe in. do we believe in "empire" above ethics? do we believe in profit above all else? or do we really believe in all the liberal advances we've made in the last 100 years, like equal rights, unions, fair labor laws, environmental pretections...are you with me yet?
i am embarrassed of this administration's foolish policies, angered by their lies, and ready to fight the entire corporate world if need be, just to see some semblance of a "noble america" restored! what hope can we give anyone in the world, if we don't have our integrity and our morality? bush/cheney must go...to prison!
m.
The popular sentiment etc...
i say what fear is justified if you have the "we the people" on your side? the popular sentiment is that the bush team is wrong...let's prove how wrong...no apologies, no mercy!
@@@@@@
The popular sentiment is that the war in Iraq is going badly....
There is NO general agreement on
1) what to do about Iraq
2) that Bush actually lied to the nation
3) that by lying to the nation in speeches this constitutes an impeachable offense
4) That Bush should be impeached...
Agree..
I agree they should go to prison. I can't understand how anyone could think that an impeachment is not the right thing to do. I mean, in comparison, Clinton got impeached for sexual relations and lying about them. Are mistakes that have lead to the deaths of thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands Iraqis not worth a trial? I feel like the deception here has had more negative impact than any president ever impeached. I think not impeaching at this point would make the statement that justice at the highest level is not important.
If we try and fail, at least we tried. It's the right thing to do.
To Censure...
means to officially "condemn" the actions of the individual(s) in question.
They can do both...
"As a Christian, I believe that Separation of Church and State is Vital, not only for the People's Protection from an overzealous Theocratic Regime, but also for the protection of Religion from suppression."
Many of you.....
Many of you are as old as I am and you probably recall that when the investigation/hearings began related to Watergate and Nixon, his presidency ended by resigning in disgrace. I would love to see the ba$tard and his cronies pay to the fullest extent of the law for their crimes but, if nothing else, if we can force the criminals to resign in disgrace I will be able to live with that. Not the best scenario but it would be better than having this NO BRAIN continue to lead this country into disgrace and dishonor. He has done far too much damage already and it's mounting every day. I say we must go for IMPEACHMENT, no matter what the cost or implications, it is the duty of our Congress and us as citizens. Laws have been broken and when push comes to shove, the rats will squeel as they jump ship and we will have all the EVIDENCE necessary, we just have to put pressure on the House to get the investigations going.
Questions on Investigation and Impeachment
Bush should not just get booted from office for the crimes he has committed, he should go to jail.
If the term of his presidency runs out before investigations are completed does that mean we cannot prosecute him in a court for violating numerous laws? If Bush is found guilty of treason and willfully violating US law while he is still in power will he get impeached and then charged criminally for his felonies or just get impeached? I definately prefer he go to jail over just straight impeachment, or the Nixon crud with resigning in disgrace.
If evidence is found condemning Bush will they also need to find evidence against Cheney to ensure that he is not allowed to take Bush's place in the White House? Can they boot the entire administration at once if they find enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have willfully been misleading the country and breaking laws in order to push their own agenda?
I definately feel that impeachment proceedings need to be undertaken, if anything, just to show our politicians that we are not going to allow them to blatantly lie and take away personal freedoms. However, I definately feel it should be done in such a way that Bush cannot escape penalties on technicalities - a simple disgracing is NOT good enough. I know that if I was one of the innocent people tortured at Guantanamo over suspected "terrorist" ties, I would not be satisfied with anything less than jail-time. So, if investigations are necessary (and they probably are) to bring out the smoking gun evidence that is out there, then it must be done.
The short answer is, that if
The short answer is, that if Dubya and Cheney are impeached, the next president can not pardon them for impeachable crimes. If they are NOT impeached, then any crimes they have committed are potentially pardonable under a "blanket pardon." This is the type of all-encompassing pardon that Ford gave Nixon.
If they are impeached, it would then be up to the Justice Department, or others, to prosecute them under applicable criminal statutes, and bring the evidence before a Grand Jury for a criminal indictment. This is internal US Law, but International Tribunals could prosecute for war crimes, and crimes against humanity as well, regardless of any US presidential pardons.
As Chip mentioned in another thread, why do you think that Dubya is buying a ranch in Paraguay? Could it be because of their extradition laws? Of course, he could always go to his friends in Saudi Arabia for "sanctuary," like Idi Amin did.
Winning the White House is More Important than Justice?
So we just let our current President go right on committting crimes for the next two years and forget all about the crimes he committed over the past six years and the blood that was shed as a result of his lies just so maybe the Democrats might win the next Presidential election? What good will that do if the Democrats loose control of Congress again because I can tell you a lot of Democrats like me are shopping for someone outside the Democratic party if the Democratic leadership doesn't deliver on it's promise to hold the Bush administration accountable for its war crimes and restore our civil rights and Medicare benefits.
Not impeaching the President for the greater good...get serious...only a room full of Republicans would buy into that sort of reasoning. What is even more disconcerting is it seems that the Democrats intend to continue to expand and abuse executive powers just like the Republicans so our government may truely be beyond the control of the people now and that is a really scarey thought.
Agreed
I agree with you that Bush needs to be impeached. However, I don't think that voting for people outside the democratic party will help any. Most independent candidates can't get enough votes to win, and voting for them would only wind up helping the republicans in the long run.
independent party
I agree.. technically, you must always consider that if the independent doesn't win, then if he is conservative, then it helps divide the vote of the republicans, and if he is liberal, he will divide the vote of the democrats. If you had a second pick, which your vote went to if your first pick didn't win, then TRULY we would have a majority rule. However, if there are 3 candidates, and 55% of the voters show up, and candidate A gets 25% and B gets 20% and C gets 10%, then if all the C voters' second pick is B, then actually by having an independent run, we elect the LEAST wanted candidate. Scary huh?
It's time to get radical
Since there is no move towards impeachment let's move forward on a different front. Since nothing is going to happen with the Democrats in Congress we need to send them a message that support for them in 2008 is off the table. Let's start a concerted effort for a third party candidate.
Let the Democratic party and Howard Dean know that we no longer support them and their agenda. We don't want revenge etc. we want justice and we want impeachment of Bush and Cheney. We will not take anything less over the next two years.