Civil Disobedience
No way around it, today was an unmitigated disaster. For us, our children, our grandchildren. I was one of those Democrats who loved John Kerry, and still do. I do not blame him. But listening to his concession speech, I felt impatient with his call for unity. John Kerry is a dignified and graceful man, but to me this peace-making talk reflects the worst of him. Too much the good, overtrained politician.
Look, there is no way around it. We are in a war within our own country. The base that elected Bush, and the Bush regime itself, cannot be reasoned with. There is no compromise position with extremism, with religious fanaticism. And so today, on this gloomy and sad day, I want to fight. I want our democratic leaders to talk not of conciliation but of battle. If we do not hold power we can obstruct the exercise of power. We can fight every issue, slow every bill, block every appointment. We can show up in Washington, be loud and forceful, raise absolute holy hell. It's past time for fund raising and blog posting. Maybe it's time to go back to the streets.
yeah
And who would know more about "working the streets" than a Democratic prostitute/drug dealer right??
Prostitute?
Ronald45
Is that your age or IQ
Your president has already prostituted himself to Corporate American, Israel's Likud, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell. So you guys sure know about that.
streets
speaking of streets, why don't we have massive crowds of people sit across Penn Ave. in 2-block increments so we can disrupt his inauguration? Just have a massive crowd of people like sit on the streets, and refuse to get up. They're not going to run over us...
What an ignorant statement by
What an ignorant statement by ronald45...........
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-George Orwell, 1984
to the streets
Go for it moron. The right wing is well armed
They would like nothing better. You would be
pushing daiseys up.
Re: To the streets
Angel of death: you sound exactly like the redneck bubba moron you probably are. As a real vetran and professional "angel of death" guys like me would rip off your head and shit down your neck. Go back to woods and play soldier like a good little boy.
Pushing up dasies
LMAO
I have a feeling that you tell everyone that you voted for bush
because of your moral and religous convictions and yet you speak like a like a person who has sold his soul to the devil.
Based on your comments it is obvious that you voted for bush because you are a closed minded, uneducated war loving redneck instead of a true patriot.
I'm sure you believe that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do and that America is kicking ass over there.
So what branch of the service do you belong to? This country needs soldiers to fight and die to protect us from terrorism so bad that if your lame excuse for not being in the service is you age I know for a fact that they are taking people up to the age of 67.
Do us a favor go to Iraq...Support our troops.
Civil disobedience does not equate with armed insurrection
We do not promote things that are outside First Amendment protection. Such comments might go over well in places like Elohim City (sp?), but they don't belong here.
I believe the thread parent deals with fighting back through legal means. Being an American, I'm sure you can understand that someone exercising their First Amendment rights does not call for what you describe.
If pure religion is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. ~John Leland, July 5, 1802.
Civil Disobedience--A Clarification
Necco,
With this new format, it's hard to tell who is responding to who, so I don't know if your comment was directed to me or not. I wrote the initial post in this thread, and of course, was not advocating insurrection. I was, and still am, intensely angry about the election, and see conciliation by the Democrats as a disasterous strategy. We need an aggressive, unrelenting, and combative (in the metaphoric sense for those who tend toward the concrete) response to what is going to be a fairly brutal conservative assault in the next 4 years. We should not be shy about being "divisive", and we should be willing to get off of our asses and show up in Washington and let the current regime know, in evocative ways, about the other 48%.
I was responding to Angel of Death
who was a bit extreme - possibly quite over the legal line - in what he posted.
If pure religion is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. ~John Leland, July 5, 1802.
re: I was responding.........
Necco, it looks like Angel of Death is a goner. Click his name and you will find his profile is missing. He has been terminated.
(See my post about lottery:)
Lottery to see how long repugs stick around
"Trolls need not respond you will only be frustrated by my inattention to you."
Target practice
You would be used for target practice. PERIOD
angel from hell
Start shooting. Have fun. So did Hitler, Stalin, Mussilini, the British before our revolution. Dictators and their minnions always do. I refuse to live in fear of terrorists, and that is all you are.
If your goal is to breed fear, you are failing.
However, I do admire your simpleton style of getting right to the point. Maybe a hat would cover that point.
Getting sick of this talk
Lets see we all are going to move because the
election was lost. Yea that really solves the
problem. GET REAL
I agree that it is time for a
I agree that it is time for action. Something has to be done. I am from a "red" state that should know better. It is time to unite for a cause. Before this election I was an idealist who believed that it was acceptable to be a registered independent. Due to the results of this election I am changing parties. I am young so this was the first election that I could participate in that matter to me. This election is a set back but don't forget that there are many of us out there who didn't care before a couple months ago who give a damn now.
civil disobedience
since all of the branches of government are controlled by the bush dynasty, and since vote-counts can't be trusted I see no other option than protest. we need specific plans. we could boycott companies that are big contributors to republicans -- walmart comes to mind. we could boycott products from particular states -- florida orabge juice. and, we can always have good old-fashioned "sit-ins", "die-ins", "sleep-ins", well you get the idea...remember the 60's!
Now we need a concrete plan to move forward.
Stand and Fight
Turn your flags upside down, we are in dire distress under Dubya, this election was the most important election of our lifetime. It was about Good vs Evil, Democracy vs Fascism, Tyranny vs Freedom, Virtues vs Vices and so on fanatic religion as the ideal vs the separation of church and state. These right wing nutcases will stop at nothing to pass their agenda, we must stand up and protest, we must protest the innaguration of Dubya in Washington, and we must make sure in 2006 we take back the congress.
Decline of Civility and Morality
I believe that when Bush was selected to be President in 2000 Civility and Morality started to decline. Especially morality, look at the examples of the constant and persistant lying we have faced, the President is supposed to set an example for the country. Despite President Clinton's personal sexual problems which were really not our business, he was one of the BEST Presidents of all time.
My point is we have a responsibility as citizens of this country to let this administration know we do not approve of their policies and what they stand for. The founding fathers made it very clear that The Separation of Church and state was very important in this country. Infact, this country was founded on religious freedom, we are shifting towards Fascism as many of you know. Further, the founders made no mention of parties in the Constitution because they were afraid it would divide the country. I suppose this doesn't matter because Dubya has torn the constitution apart, or doesn't know it exists.
-We must Stand and Fight protesting is our right because if we submit to tyranny it is going to get worse, next Bush is going to issue an executive order that there will be no more elections, and his succesor will be appointed when he is too old to rule this country.
civil disobedience
I am truly apalled at the actions and words of our government, and the defense of the stolen election. I worked for Kerry in PA and watched as we countered their deletions of the votes through the day. As I look further its obvious that the rigging was widespread and deep, with no real hope for future elections to be valid. The next obvious step will be outlawing exit polls, to ratify their own crimes. Kerry won the actual count by millions, probably 30%, and the exit polls support this. After midnight the big changes were made to most swing states, as the repugs gave up on PA and some other states that had a lot of mechanical machines. They know if they get the courts to back them there is no recourse for the opposition, and the takeover of the republic is secured. Well they wanted a dictator, now let them have the son of a bitch. Its time for the northeast to withdraw financial support to the federal government, let them stew in their juices. They can't built a road, bridge, or school in the bible belt with out our money, so fuck em.
No Reconciliation!
I am urging fellow Democrats not to give one single dammed inch -- surrender no ground whatsoever! We are drifting toward a one party fasist state -- shall we steer our vessel against the raging waters or let loose and be swallowed into a deep abyss? This is no time at all for reconciliation with the Republicans -- we must steer clear of these dark waters that we are so omniously heading into with wreckless abandon. John Kerry had my full support, but I do not agree with this olive branch mentality, for it is not the mentality of the opposition or their "president." Whatever happened to the days of fiery politicians who were more concerned about serving their constituents than their dammed political interest? It seems today that our Democratic congressman want to just lay down in the road and let the Republicans walk all over them! What in the hell happened to the interest of the people? I can in no way advocate reconciliation with this heinous Bush administration. We must have strident opposition and a full investigation into last Tuesday's so called "election"! We must become every bit as vile and unrelenting as the Republicans if we are ever to put forward the principles of REAL DEMOCRACY. To bow to this nonsense talk of healing wounds and making amendments is political suicide. This was possibly the single most important election of our life times and now... We must fight! Do not give ground. Do not surrender to the Republican dogs. Never surrender!
We must learn from the past, live in the present, and prepare for the future. In doing so, we increase the promise that is part of being human. Nothing in this world has ever been accomplished without passion.
We could fight...
or, we could learn.
Can we swallow our pride, for one minute, and give 60 seconds of fair and deliberate thought prior to taking angry action????
Is it possible that the 60 million Americans that share our great nation, and voted for Bush have a different perspective than we do? Is it possible that they understand the facts, understand the realities, but somehow the democratic party didn't provide a believable, solution that was credible to them?
How are we going to win, if we don't take time to understand that perspective...
When terrorists attacked on 9/11 how many liberals cried out "We need to understand them. Why do they hate us so much?" How can we be more willing to understand suicide mass murderers, than our fellow country man??? Shouldn't the Democratic party now ask the same question of themselves??? Why does the Heartland hate us so much?
They've been duped
I can't ask why they hate us so much, I must ask why do they believe Bush so much.
Sorry this is the second place I am posting this but please take a minute to get a chill down your spine and understand why so many people voted for Bush.
How To be Politically Successful
1) Never allow the public to cool off.
2) Never admit a fault or wrong.
3) Never concede that there may be some good in your enemy.
4) Never leave room for alternative.
5) Never accept blame.
6) Concentrate on one enemy at a time & blame him for everything that goes wrong.
7) People will believe a big lie sooner than they will believe a little one.
8) If you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.
from
Walter Langer's
Mind of Adolf Hitler pg.75
Reality Check
ecp,
This is not about pride, it is about justice and truth.
We spent 4 years trying to debate the issues and were shut out of the debate at every opportunity, in the house, senate, media, you name it. Maybe you spent too much time not paying attention to understand what Democrats and other reasonable people tried to say before the election. Maybe you spent too much time with Fox. Maybe Maybe Maybe
Fact is, the war we are fighting in Iraq is unjust, and our president should not have sent you. What we fight for is that the American fighting man would not be in harm's way.
By the way, I would like to know how killing innocent Iraqis fights terrorism, when by it's very definition, you can never know the who, what, where, and how a terrorist will strike. By its very nature it is secretive. Since Saddam was not sponsoring 9/11 terrorists (9/11 commission) we have wasted precious time and lives in this so called war on terrorists. I harbor no sympathy for terrorists. The are extremely brainwashed, fanatical robots. But have you visited Palestinian refuge camps? Maybe that would put a face on the terrorists and you would understand why,in their dispare, why they are so easily conned into what they do. No, I hate terrorism. But I cannot hate the people they are recruit from.
So as far as I am concerned, 51 percent of the voters were bambooziled, while 48 percent were not.
Different Persepetive
I'd venture a guess that 'perspectives' differ on both sides, and no one side has one perspecive.
People voted for Bush for many reasons; fear, taxes, religious dogma, etc. There was no one reason. The republicans targeted different bases, and gave them progpoganda that was confined to their demographic. For instance, in the south, they had one target that doesn't want to give up their confederate flag. They got these people, (mostly marginally educated men, with the macho mentality), to believe that liberals were destroying their grand old flag. They got them riled up, signed them up to vote, and they did. Thousands of letters were sent to fundamentalist congregations, warning them that Kerry would legalize gay marriage. The republicans are rich, they are tight among themselves, they are well coordinated in their campaigns, and last but not least, they hire EXPERTS at manipulating people. These experts give them 'buzz words' that will stick in people's minds. They hold sessions with 'regular' people, and test them, to see what gets through to them. People follow their gut when they vote, reserving a small amount of decision making to facts. Republicans found the language that got people's emotions riled, and they won.
Fight
We have to stand up against Dubya, if we don't we will see the Patriot Act II and III. We have to show the rest of the country that we dismiss fascist, and that we dismiss Dubya. I don't want this country to become Jesus Land, we must stand up strong and be heard, much like Gandhi and King.
clarity
I believe that we must come to a conclusion to exactly what we want our referandum against Bush is, what we are going to do to protest, and how we are all going to come together to protest things like the innaguration.
Inverting the flag has become a primary focuse, we are in distress under King George, but we must stand up, and make sure King George is fillibustered on every initiative he tries to pass.
President Clinton
Connecting with President is another idea, he is very well admired throughout the country, getting him to help carry the 2006 Congressional election, and helping us in 2008 is an import idea.
Come mista taliban tally me b
Come mista taliban tally me banana. Daylight come an' me want to go home.
Civil Disobedience - to the EXTREME!
What are you liberals going to do at the inaugeration anyway? Drive by the president's house and toss a rock through the window? Flaming dog of poo on the door step? Ring the door bell and run? Try any of these things at 1600 pennsylvania ave and you'll likely spend a night or two in a DC holding cell, sharing quarters with a 350 pound transgendered pick-pocket named Molly.
The strange thing about your country is, at 4 year intervals, you feel compelled to hold presidential elections in which the outcome is inevitable. Half the population is thrilled, the other half is horrified. The country is deeply divided after every election. Many other nations perform a similar ritual at regular intervals with surprisingly similar results. It seems that the best course of action would be to do away with devisive elections and appoint a dictator for life.
Think about the unity that could be achieved! Whether everybody loves the dictator or hates him, the nation would be on the same page. It would be exceedingly difficult to disenfranchise voters when nobody votes. Everybody's non-vote would be counted. Er-go perfect electoral reform.
Let's try to keep it in perspective people. When push comes to shove, at least you've got some semblance of proportional representation via the electoral college, an elected senate and term limits. My homeland has none of these things. And our health care system isn't half as good as you've heard. Parties have won huge majority governments with 39% of the popular vote. This in effect gives the prime minister near dictatorial powers for each four year term. Ontario hold more than one third of the seats in the House of Commons. What Ontario says goes. Our senate is appointed by the prime minister and not subject to any house reviews. Ditto for the supreme court. Ditto for all 30+ cabinet portfolios.
And for the last time, the fact that you've elected an unabashedly conservative fundamentalist christian as your chief executive does not entitle you to refugee status. We've turned away better people from worse of countries without giving it a second thought.
Take it from sombody living in a country where general elections nowhere near resemble the will of the people. Buy some KY jelly and find something to bite down on for the next four years. Let us know when you finally come to the realization that a liberal loss in an election is not evidence of a right-wing conspiracy, or "disenfranchisement" or electoral fraud. By then we may have things to discuss.
Innaguration Protest
www.turnyourbackonbush.org is an organization that is planning the protest on innaguration day.
Standing up to Bush
www.turnyourbackonbush.com
Sign up for the Protest
Trying to trump the GOP Attack now.
Time to Grow Up
I logged on to this site to get a feeling for what the opposition was thinking. I had hoped to see a serious discussion of specific Bush policies with which you disagreed and some strategies for addressing them; perhaps even some introspection about why the country roundly rejected your message, despite the extreme makeover of John Kerry enabled by the mainstream media. Instead, I found rabid accusations of Bush as Hitler, rash claims that we are "at war" within our own country, paranoid delusions of conspiracies from debate earpieces to stolen elections, puerile threats to leave the country and calls to action for more rage and civil disobedience. Believe it or not, I do not want to see the Democratic party spiral into oblivion, as it surely will if you continue to lurch to the lunatic left with this type of Moore-onish thinking--our country needs a robust 2 party system. So it's time to grow up--Bush is not Hitler any more than Kerry is Stalin; despite the post of the earlier "conservative" (if I were as paranoid as you, I would suspect that it was posted by a Lib trying to stir the pot)no one is going to shoot anyone. We are not a theocracy, nor are we in any danger of becoming one. The 60 million people who voted for Bush are not stupid, nor were they duped--they simply didn't share your vision. John Ashcroft is not prying into your computer to find out what porn sites you've visited. Take a look at Hitler's 8 guidelines to politics posted earlier, and see how many of them apply to this site. There are serious issues to be debated, and believe it or not, many of us Reaganites are not marching in lockstep behind the President. So please, won't one of you say something that adults can take seriously?
Connections
I never said that Bush is as Hitler, you made that connection all by yourself. Of course that's what I wanted, but I only offered the information. I feel better about it thinking people don't really share his "vision", I give you credit by saying you were duped.
If you revisit this site to check on your post then let me clarify what you seem not to know.
Bush met with lawyers after 9-11 to find ways to avoid the Geneva Convention and our own civil laws in dealing with prisoners from all over, but mainly from Afghanistan. Until a few months ago when our judicial system began to work to help a few of these people there were over 600 prisoners at Guantanamo Bay with NO legal protection from anything including torture. Most those people are still there, and there are currently 2 underage prisoners. I learned some of this information from our government and some of it from the Red Cross. The Red Cross is VERY concerned about these prisoners. Are you proud of this backwards low conduct? Is this the "vision" you share with Bush?
Bush had information in his office which stated that the "evidence" that Iraq had WMD was not accurate -- but somehow that vitally important information wasn't considered as we sent thousands of men and women to fight and be maimed or killed for the WMD that did not exist. (Holy Sh*t) Is this the "vision" you share with Bush?
And what about The Great Deficit? You know all about that I suppose. It's not like he took us from zero to -7.5 Trillion -- first he blew the surplus. Check it out:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
Is this the "vision" you share with Bush?
These three issues are just the beginning, but I emphasize them because they shake the foundation of our country. I wonder how long Bush will fool some of the people, because that's all he needs. Now Bush can create a new and stronger America without pride, without compassion, without respect for individual liberties, without respect for justice, without fiscal responsibility, without environmental responsibility, and without hope for the future.
That's "Vision"?
nothing changes.
the truth.is that most republicans havent a clue as to what the government has done in the last 4 yrs. I've had a few conversations with repug neighbors, and they were by and large ignorant about war taxes and the realities of economics. God Bless us all.
Repubs
Most of what the repubs say are moot points at best, they come from what I call the argument of outrage. They don't know the facts so they attack us, much like Limbaugh