ImpeachPAC Ad: Who Gets to Speak?

  • Bob Fertik's picture
    Bob Fertik
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

There are some big-name progressive bloggers who don't want ImpeachPAC to run our ad about neo-Nazis in the military. I expect they will express themselves passionately very soon.

Of course they have a right to their point of view. But is their analysis any good?

Here are some things I assume we can agree on:

  1. The Iraq War is a catastrophe in a million different ways, and Americans will pay the price for years to come.
  2. George Bush, Karl Rove, the DLC, and Joe Lieberman don't want the 2006 election to be about the Iraq War.
  3. The voters of Connecticut - and all of America - have every right to make the Iraq War the central issue of the 2006 campaign - and to defeat every candidate like Joe Lieberman who continues to support the war.

Are we all in agreement so far? I hope so.

So now let's get to the substantive and strategic questions:

1. Does the ImpeachPAC ad raise a valid issue?

I believe it does. The ad is based on the excellent work of the Southern Poverty Law Center and it should be of concern to every American who understands what will happen if neo-Nazis and other extremists infiltrate the military and are not expelled immediately.

2. Should Senator Joe Lieberman do something about neo-Nazis in the military?

Absolutely - that's why we put the issue in the ad. The story appeared in the NY Times on July 7 but Lieberman has done nothing about it - even as he brags on the campaign trail about how his seniority on the Senate Armed Services Committee has brought lots of defense contracts to Connecticut!

3. Are we accusing Joe Lieberman of being a Nazi sympathizer?

Of course not - don't be idiotic. But we are accusing him of doing an unacceptably poor job as Senator, both for enthusiastically supporting the Iraq War and for failing to deal with its disastrous consequences - of which the Pentagon's refusal to expel neo-Nazis from the military is just one example. See #2 above.

4. Will the Lieberman campaign and its rightwing allies distort our ad?

Absolutely. Lieberman knows he can't win a debate on the issues, so his whole campaign has been to smear his critics. But I think the Connecticut media has figured this out by now (remember the Halliburton stock attack that destroyed Lieberman's credibility?) so I don't think they will fall for another smear campaign. 

5. Will this ad hurt Ned Lamont?

Absolutely not. Ned Lamont opposed the Iraq War and wants to bring our troops home as soon as possible. It's not Ned Lamont's fault that our military is so desperate for troops that they are letting neo-Nazis in - and letting them stay. It's not Ned Lamont's fault that the Senate Armed Services Committee hasn't held a hearing on this issue. If Ned Lamont was in the Senate, he would be willing to deal with the disastrous consequences of the war - including the infiltration of neo-Nazis into our military. That's one excellent reason (on top of all the others) why any undecided voter should vote for Ned Lamont.

6. Why do some progressive bloggers think it will hurt Ned Lamont?

Because they think Joe Lieberman will distort our ad (see #4) and attack Ned Lamont for it. I think Lamont is smart enough to answer Lieberman by ignoring the smears and focusing on the substance of the ad - that neo-Nazis are infiltrating our military is a deeply disturbing issue that the Senate should investigate and stop immediately.

Comments

Please DON'T run this ad!......

  • DCCyclone's picture
    DCCyclone
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

I've given money to Lamont and desperately want him to win. And nothing is more certain than that this ad can only hurt Lamont and help Lieberman. Please, please, please don't put this ad on the air!

This ad is politically tone-deaf, it fails to understand that voters WILL view it as implicitly calling Lieberman a Nazi sympathizer. And it will be viewed as over-the-top and WAAAAY out of line. And the ad's explicit endorsement of Ned Lamont effectively attaches him to the accusation. This ad effectively will make Lamont himself THE issue in this campaign, when Lieberman has been and should remain the issue all along.

Ned has ALL the momentum right now, please don't kill it by airing this ad.

Lamont has absolutely nothing to do with this ad

  • Bob Fertik's picture
    Bob Fertik
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

so anyone who accuses him is a liar and an idiot and demonstrates utter contempt for the intelligence of Connecticut voters.

i think Connecticut voters are smart enough to watch the ad, read the documentation, and conclude that Joe Lieberman isn't doing his job as U.S. Senator on this important issue.

I understand arguments about

  • Jim's picture
    Jim
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

I understand arguments about strategy, but how is this "WAAAAY out of line"?   Lieberman is not a sympathizer, he is milk toast.

 

 

 

 

Please DON'T run this ad

  • rtpricetag's picture
    rtpricetag
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

I am in agreement with DCCyclone about this ad by ImpeachPAC, although the issue of Nazi mentality enlisting in the military is dangerous, in fact these cowards epitomize the Bush-admin war mindset. They hide themselves within their little cabal's, while enslaving and murdering the innocent.

Lieberman must be defeated by Lamont to show not only the PNAC-GOP leaders, but also the spineless DEM-leadership in colusion with this group who are selling out America... literally.

Take back America first, then we will be able to rebuild Democracy and the ideals they have thrown out or denigrated. Not only must Lieberman be removed from leadership, along with the godless GOP leaders, but also the DEM-leadership who are no different.

What did Kerry in - a ham sandwich?

The truth will always set you free, whether you consider it to be vicious or not.

If that wasn't so, Kerry would be president because the Swift Boat ads wouldn't have worked against him.

Y' know?

Sometimes you've got to stand tall to prove you're a man before people will listen to you. After about six years of Petticoat Junction, I'm ready for Uncle Joe to let everyone have it!

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

The issue regarding Lieberman

  • rtpricetag's picture
    rtpricetag
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

The issue regarding Lieberman is (not) Nazi sympathizers within the Bush-Admin military, it is the deception, lies and spineless cowards who began this war. Among these deceivers are (Democrats?) who literally kiss the Bush-Admin rear.

It is a dodge used by the PNAC-GOP to sidestep answering legitimate charges of warmongering with deception, by changing the subject and introducing slander against those concerned calling them unpatriotic and unAmerican. Let us not use dodges, but stick with the (damning) facts concerning Lieberman.

Stick to the issue, Lieberman is a prime example of deception, saying he is one way, but acting and doing the opposite. Lieberman is a rank example of the Nazi element now needed in the military. Want a better military, then (first) clear out the Liberman/s now in (OUR) government, while it still (may) be out government.

For an "Independent" you

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

For an "Independent" you seem to be full of advice for real Democrats.

rtpricetag and DCCyclone

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

rtpricetag and DCCyclone have both defeated their own arguments. The ad is about neo-nazis being allowed in the military, which has become a national issue. The Senate Armed Services Committee has done squat about it. Adopting a "centrist" let's-not-stir-the-pot attitude is exactly what Lieberman and the DLC want from the likes of "Independents" and other fence-sitters.

Joe Lieberman sits on the SASC, and he has done squat about it. Lieberman supposedly represents the American people, and the American people do NOT want nazis in our military, and a majority of them are against this senseless "war". Lieberman's support for Dubya's war, and his failure to address the concerns of the American people are ample reasons to run the ad.

If anything, the ad supports Lamont's position on both the war, and on neo-nazis being allowed to prosecute it. It is waaaay past time for real Democrats to stand up and be heard, and to stop whining about being more "moderate," or waiting for the "right time" to stand up. The time is now!

Last week's "national issue"

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

"It is waaaay past time for real Democrats to stand up and be heard, and to stop whining about being more "moderate," or waiting for the "right time" to stand up. The time is now!"

So let's shoot ourselves in the foot by touting a weak connection between a jewish senator and nazis? I have no problem with aggression, but ham-handed aggression is a hallmark of republicans, not dems.

Which part of the ad do you

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Which part of the ad do you NOT understand. There is no mention, implication, or accusation that a "jewish [sic]" Senator (Lieberman) has ANY connection to nazis.

The ad (correctly) points out that the Senate Armed Services Committee of which Lieberman is a ranking member, has done absolutely nothing about the fact that there ARE nazis in the military.

Playing the "anti-semite" card by people like you plays directly into Lieberman's "centrist" hand, and NOT the airing of a truthful, and timely, ad. There is absolutely nothing anti-semitic about the ad, unless you choose to read that bigoted view into it.

The fact that Lieberman is Jewish (notice the capital letter?) has no bearing on his performance as a Senator, or his participation on the SASC. It is you, and people like you, who are shooting the Democratic Party in the foot -- not us.

dude

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

if all these idiots do not understand the ad and it requires so much condescension from you to explain it, how do you think it's going to play in Connecticut?

Maybee thair reel smart like uu.

First off, how would you

  • Jim's picture
    Jim
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

First off, how would you know if Bill was being condescending to you?

 

All kidding aside, input is important for guiding advertising... in the SHORT term.

 

This is a case however of deciding to follow the followers or lead them...LONG term. In other words, this seems a touchy issue because too many have been silent for too long.

 

 

Heh

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

1. I can read.
2. the primary is Aug. 8, you only have the short term.
3. a person or persons can lead in an intelligent manner, being aggressive for the sake of aggression only isn't intelligent. It's just aggressive.
4. I have no love for the DLC and am farther left than most of the posters at DailyKos. I do agree that the Democratic Party needs to be more aggressive, but they need to be smart as well. I just disagree that the ad is effective for the reasons I stated.

This is not simply about

  • Jim's picture
    Jim
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

This is not simply about Aug. 8th or Nov. 2006.

I dare the electorate to vote Republican.  If you are white and have a little money you will survive the scum bag morons on the Right.  If you are in the bottom 90% (~$100,000 a year and less) it is your wallet and kid's ass on the line.   

If voters continue to bitch and moan about poor bums to save a penny while allowing rich bums to screw them they deserve what they get.  Voters should not be coddled.  They need to grow the hell up or suffer the consequences. 

Humans tend to shield themselves from ridicule.  Ads like this and hard hitting commentary will reach a tipping point where Right leaning voters will disavow their "rightness." rather than endure criticism.  It will first come by claiming "independent" status or noting that Republicans are not "conservative" anyway.   Some such muck until they finally simply say "fuck it" people are rich because weaklings accept crap for wages or inflated prices for products/services.

(And this is to say nothing of the Right's race from science.  A race that will lead to the military defeat of the USA as it has in Iraq.  -Admittedly it was both stupidity AND greed that caused the Right to lose this War but stupidity looms large with these guys.)

Winning taint nuttin. We need strong Democrats to win. We then need to get our money back. We can't do that by just barely tipping the scales.

Jim, condescension is in the

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Jim, condescension is in the ear of the listener. Explaining the obvious is a job that scientists such as yourself do well, but you often leave yourselves open to accusations of "elitism" and condescension for doing so.

People like ksh who have made up their minds on a subject based on emotion rather than fact, are seldom educated by such mudane things as truth and reason.

Dang it!

  • Jim's picture
    Jim
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Maybe I was being too subtle.   I just figured ksh was not smart enough to know when somebody was being condescending ;) ;) ;)

Maybe the joke works better as: "How would YOU know I was being condescending?"

That last remark made my

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

That last remark made my prophesy come true... Bye bye.

P.S. I believe that the voters in CT are much, much smarter than you give them credit for, and are NOT idiots (as you describe them). Now who's being condescending...?

Awwww, I wannt be reeeel smart

Jes like hern. 

Kin teetcher stay, huh?  Kin she? 

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

Gosh darn it Lootie, with

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Gosh darn it Lootie, with all these here chores I got to do, I ain't got time fer no book learnin' ner such...

Who has majority across the board?

...but ham-handed aggression is a hallmark of republicans, not dems.

Then that's why we're sitting on the sidelines in the House, Senate, WH, and Judiciary.  Thanks for pointing that out, but it didn't bolster your argument.

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

a definition for you

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

ham-hand·ed
adj.

1. Lacking dexterity or skill; clumsy.

ham-handed aggression is why we are in Iraq, not why the republicans "have the majority across the board."

It's exactly why they have majority

and don't proceed to give me definitions, little missy.  If intelligence meant anything, Bush wouldn't be president, so go teach your little infantile lessons where someone cares.

Republicans are in majority because they don't take no for an answer.  They don't care if they sound extreme.  It gets them noticed.  They don't care if they're 'clumsy.'  Hell, Bush messages the shoulders of female dignitaries.  It got him noticed, didn't it?

They refuse to be the wallflowers that democrats are.  That's why - duh - the American public, of all the criticisms they have for republicans, do NOT say that they don't believe republicans have backbone.  They reserve that distinction for democrats because - guess what?  IT'S TRUE.  Democrats want to be wallflowers that are courteous and smell all nice and don't want to make waves.

UH -DUH - this is POST 9/11.  Grow some brains, even if you have send out for cultures! 

That part of the republican strategy is what beats the pants off the pansies sitting in DC and calling themselves democrats - you know, like Lieberman, Miller, Nelson, Nelson, et al.  The republicans are as extreme as they want to be; they get noticed; they call the other guy extreme.

And there people like you stand, creaming your pants.   

Don't attempt to be condescending to me or you'll be limping home to mama.  I came here to discuss politics, but I can just as easily bend you over and polish your backside.

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

heh

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

that's hilarious. How could I possibly condescend to you? Being as I don't want to be "limping home to mama."

Oh my.

So let me know when

You're ready to discuss politics.  Oh, and go find some buddies.  I'm sure Little Green Snotballs has some handy over there.  

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

ad

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

I watched this ad several times and don't think it equates Lieberman with Nazis, however, there is enough of a connection made to make it look as if outside bloggers are imposing themselves in a negative way, making over the top claims. If I were riding the fence in Connecticut, I would have sympathy for Lieberman being smeared by "rabid bloggers" just by virtue of connecting an orthodox jewish senator and neo nazis in the same commercial.

I wouldn't try to run it any longer. Why take such a risk when the risk isn't needed and there are SO MANY OTHER ISSUES to take up? I don't mean to offend you, but the production quality and substantive content aren't good enough to make people run to vote for Lamont. In other words, it's not so GOOD that it hits a home run for Lamont and it has the potential to create sympathy and feed the meme that Lieberman's opposition is composed of off the wall bloggers/outsiders.

If you're looking for a Willie Horton type success, I think you have to consider that the Willie Horton ad played to negative sentiments and beliefs within the voting populace (racism, unreasonable fear of convicts killing you). People who are against the war are simply against the war. I don't see how you get points making even some US soldiers out to be fascists. In fact, the ad caters to a stronger sentiment of sympathy for old Joe.

Why take the risk of causing harm, especially when there's not a great chance of the commercial causing good?

If you would take the time

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

If you would take the time to read even a few nodes and forums on Democrats.com you would understand what we are all about here. But no, you barge in here and begin posting long diatribes on a single issue, which you obviously know very little about.

You appear to be a DLC "centrist" sympathizer, and my guess is that you will not last long on this site.

P.S. If you came over here from Daliy Kos, that would explain your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Nice

  • ksh's picture
    ksh
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

I registered to specifically post my opinion of the ad, which, I assume, you would NOT want to be understood solely if you post here. It being, you know, an ad and all that.

Your insults aside, I would have stuck around to get to know the site more, it being a blog and all that.

Whatever.

KOS

Bill,

 

Didn't you get the memo?  Us extremist liberals are supposed to be cultists to Kos's Koresh. 

I was sure someone had clued you in.

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

From Raw Story!!!

  • dinamic's picture
    dinamic
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

A group that touts itself as an organization of liberal bloggers has produced an ad that attempts to link the incumbency of Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) to a rise in neo-Nazi activity in the US military.

The group, ImpeachPAC, calls it "the progressive blogosphere's first TV ad in the closely-watched Democratic primary battle between incumbent Senator Joe Lieberman and his progressive challenger, Ned Lamont."

No other liberal bloggers or groups have endorsed the ad.

The ad relies heavily on a report by the Southern Poverty Law Center, that quotes a Pentagon investigator as saying, "Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don't remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members."

The ad claims that after 320 extremists were identified by investigators, President Bush--and the Senate, including Lieberman--did nothing to remove the others. It also attempts to link Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh to the phenomenon.

According to a statement issued by ImpeachPAC president Bob Fertik, "ImpeachPAC is running this TV ad in Connecticut because the infiltration of neo-Nazis in our military is a direct consequence of the disastrous Iraq War that Senator Joe Lieberman enthusiastically supports."

MORE HERE

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis

In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

"touts itself as an organization of liberal bloggers"

  • Bob Fertik's picture
    Bob Fertik
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

what the heck does that mean?

ImpeachPAC is a Political Action Committee funded by citizens who believe George Bush and Dick Cheney should be impeached - not very complicated.

No other liberal bloggers or groups have endorsed the ad.

Well that's true, because we haven't asked anyone for to endorse it. 

Otherwise it's accurate, in that silly journalistically-anonymous way.

 

Oh, FCOL.

I just watched the ad. What's the big deal?

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

I'm concerned.

  • Jim's picture
    Jim
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Can I still call Ann Coulter dumb even though she is blond?

I just don't understand the mentality

The republicans swoop in with attack ads, full of innuendo and rumor to destroy good men like Cleland and it works.  The democrats want to run an ad that's full of truth but is just as outrageous, and there are people who don't want it to run. 

I mean, my god - do democrats want to win or not?  I didn't see a blessed thing in that ad that was not true; did not need to be addressed; was not addressed by someone expecting to be re-elected -- I guess for the good job he's done?!?

I say tough rocks. 

As for Coulter, why Jim - you can call her anything you wish. 

 

In this life there are two things that are certain.  Those two things are death and taxes.  (paraphrased - Ben Franklin)

Republicans offer death. I'll take the taxes.

Please DON'T Run This Ad

  • CTPatriot's picture
    CTPatriot
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

Bob Fertik & Staff...

I've watched the ad, I understand its point and I agree that we need to be tough with Republicans and Liebercrats. I am a Ned Lamont campaign volunteer and supporter from Connecticut. I am also nominally Jewish (born and raised but not very observant).

While I am deeply concerned about the reports of neo-nazis being allowed into the military, I do not consider that issue nearly as important or as easily linked to Lieberman as, say, the appointment of Sam Alito to the Supreme Court - something that will impact every American for the next 40 years.

Additionally, I believe that running this ad can easily backfire, not because it's not true, and not because it's not tough, but because the mainstream media, which is largely a GOP organ these days, will pull the image of the kid with the swastikas, put it beside Joe Lieberman and they will mercilessly blast liberals for, in their words, "accusing Joe of supporting nazis". Joe Lieberman will express his outrage, purposely taking the ad out of context because Karl Rove told him to do so, and the media will gladly turn Lieberman into the victim. It's a message that you will absolutely lose control of, and will be used to drum up all sorts of sympathy for Lieberman, who is currently polling very poorly among Jewish voters here in CT.

The message that "Ned Lamont supporters are accusing Joe Lieberman of supporting nazis" could potentially change that to the detriment of Ned Lamont.

Strictly speaking for myself, I ask that you please not run this ad. If you want to make a tough ad that kicks Lieberman in the nuts, how about one that plays his quote about "it's a short ride to another hospital" and then show a rape victim being told that as she breaks down in tears in the emergency room of a religious hospital that just refused to give her plan-B? Or how about showing a president issuing dictatorial signing statements and then showing Sam Alito as the one who advised on doing that? Or show a 12yo girl who has just suffered the humiliation of a warrantless strip search, and then show Sam Alito voting in favor of it with Joe Lieberman congratulating him.

At least with ads like those, you're not going to draw out all the freaks who come out of the woodwork anytime the word "nazi" is used, especially when someone Jewish is involved.

You, like other Daily Kos

  • Bill Harding's picture
    Bill Harding
    Want to meet our members? Click 'Join' above!

You, like other Daily Kos addicts, have missed the point of the ad. It is NOT about Lieberman, it is about the Republican-controlled SASC and the FACT that there are nazi "white supremists" in the military. It IS an important issue, and goes straight to the murder of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Just because Lieberman is Jewish is not a reason to cut him any slack. His religion has never been called into question, except by people like you who see anti-semite overtones in anything remotely critical of Lieberman. He IS giving tacit support to the practice of enlisting neo-nazis in the military by not opposing it.

Lieberman, like the BA, already hides behind the Flag. He has no moral right to hide behind his religion.